How to stop blowing belt on a M1000?

[AaronBND]

I'm running about 7650-7700rpm's which is right where SLP says to be with their pipe kit. Although this is contrary to what Dale Cutler says (he says max 7450 even with their setup)! Anyways.....I just kinda thought the heavier weights would squeeze more causing less slippage? Am I off course here?

Aaron

 

[mrquick68]

I'm running about 7650-7700rpm's which is right where SLP says to be with their pipe kit. Although this is contrary to what Dale Cutler says (he says max 7450 even with their setup)! Anyways.....I just kinda thought the heavier weights would squeeze more causing less slippage? Am I off course here?

Aaron

you are assuming that the slip is being caused by the primary? Is it? is the secondary shift stopping for some reason as well??

if your motor is pulling way out of alignment, then you need to fix that first...

and believe it or not, running too much weight can also cause slippage. you'd think it would just pull your rpms down, but because the weights are pretty heavy in the 1000 the momentum of the weights swinging out can cause the secondary to overshift and then correct - but because the weights are so heavy, they don't correct well and slippage occurs in the PRIMARY, so often you'll get the rpms you desire in the primary even with heavy weights, but the reason is because the primary is slipping and your whole setup does not match front to rear. This is the reason CPC adjustable weights are nice - you can figure this stuff out pretty quickly right on the hill... keep pulling weight until your rpms start rising. Sometimes with lighter weights they rpms will even LOWER as the belt starts to actually grip!

now - i did forget one thing on these 1000s - i think stiffer motor mounts on the PTO plate are key (along with the sixth mount) to keep this motor in place.

start your clutch work after that. Remember that these cats are setup heavy heavy stiff in the clutch department - heavy weights (medium spring up front) w/ a shallow helix and monster spring out back... the setup perform, but all that weight and friction mean a LOT of heat... i never tried my theory to the extreme, but i wonder if you started lightening things up front and back if belts will live a lot longer???

I will tell you i started the season running 83g weights and ended up w/ 76.7g weights and less pressure and higher angles in the secondary. though we didn't figure motor mount stuff out until late in the season, the changes i was making of going lighter and lighter did make my belts last longer and longer and did make performance increases...

 

[Nubulin]

...... My question is, I know you have to check the alignment but how can you adjust it on the M1000. I don't have any shims or anything behind the secondary clutch.............
Aaron

Ding ding ding.

Poor setup will kill you every time. 3 seasons on my M1000 and never blew a belt.

1) Get an alignment bar and shims. $35 from cat.
2) Learn how to use it.
3) Scrub your clutch shieves every few rides with a scotchbrite and soap/water.
4) Wash all new belts with soap/water and scotchbrite before use.
5) Consider ditching the torsion setup. All you are doing is adding more variables. (I had nothing but problems with mine)
6) LOOK FOR OIL LEAKS FROM THE Y PIPE DOUGHNUT. When you pinch it the pipe actually comes off the doughnut and pukes oil out. A little on your belt and you are screwed.

All this venting and extra aftermarket crap is not going to fix a poor setup. I ran the piss out of my M1000 and never had issues, but spent the extra time to do the above..

Also, 7700RPMs seems like you would be right against the rev limiter. I would agree with Dale that 7450 seems more reasonable. I have not run your setup though.

 

[Schags]

you are assuming that the slip is being caused by the primary? Is it? is the secondary shift stopping for some reason as well??

if your motor is pulling way out of alignment, then you need to fix that first...

and believe it or not, running too much weight can also cause slippage. you'd think it would just pull your rpms down, but because the weights are pretty heavy in the 1000 the momentum of the weights swinging out can cause the secondary to overshift and then correct - but because the weights are so heavy, they don't correct well and slippage occurs in the PRIMARY, so often you'll get the rpms you desire in the primary even with heavy weights, but the reason is because the primary is slipping and your whole setup does not match front to rear. This is the reason CPC adjustable weights are nice - you can figure this stuff out pretty quickly right on the hill... keep pulling weight until your rpms start rising. Sometimes with lighter weights they rpms will even LOWER as the belt starts to actually grip!

now - i did forget one thing on these 1000s - i think stiffer motor mounts on the PTO plate are key (along with the sixth mount) to keep this motor in place.

start your clutch work after that. Remember that these cats are setup heavy heavy stiff in the clutch department - heavy weights (medium spring up front) w/ a shallow helix and monster spring out back... the setup perform, but all that weight and friction mean a LOT of heat... i never tried my theory to the extreme, but i wonder if you started lightening things up front and back if belts will live a lot longer???

I will tell you i started the season running 83g weights and ended up w/ 76.7g weights and less pressure and higher angles in the secondary. though we didn't figure motor mount stuff out until late in the season, the changes i was making of going lighter and lighter did make my belts last longer and longer and did make performance increases...

I was thinking of adding heavier weights to mine to pick up track speed (I am pretty steady at 40mph climing in deep pow), but I also thought the helix may be the main problem, my 600 summit pulled a 40* helix no prob, so to me a 36 on a piped m1000 just seems like overkill. Right now I am running a 42/36 with the cutler conversion, it takes off quick but unfortunatly tops out just as fast, clutches were fairly hot as well, I am starting to think that the 1000 has way to much torque for such a shallow degree, as the more torque it puts to the sec, the more it squeezes causing the pri to slip. The engine never really seemed to be under much load, and was reving at ~7600, I am ordering 75-85 cutler weights and a strait 38 helix, but maybe I should change that to a 40 or 42.

Whats your take Mr. Quick?

 

[cpatts2000]

I ran a lot of different helixes on mine before the turbo and I like the 44-40 the best with a white or an orange spring and a shift assist. With this set up I was getting 6-700 miles a belt and they were wearing out not blowing, and I probably could have ran them longer. I did not like the torsional when I tried it, but I know a lot of guys are running them.

 

[AaronBND]

I ran a lot of different helixes on mine before the turbo and I like the 44-40 the best with a white or an orange spring and a shift assist. With this set up I was getting 6-700 miles a belt and they were wearing out not blowing, and I probably could have ran them longer. I did not like the torsional when I tried it, but I know a lot of guys are running them.

Tell us more. Are you running any engine extra mounts? What elevation? What type of riding? How many miles were you getting before going to this 44-40? Thanks!

Aaron

 

[AaronBND]

Spent about 2 hours going over my clutches last night, looking, measuring, building tools, etc.. Checked parellelism and I am right at .060 front to back on the primary. Book says .060-.100 so I am on the low end of that. Checking my alignment I was a little confused. I spun the secondary like MrQuick68 said to do and could not get a .005 feeler gauge between my belt and stationary sheave on my primary, but I also noticed that it is hard to check alignment because the secondary does have movement in and out because of the gears in the DD. From what I gathered, I am going to try about a .020-.030 shim behind the secondary and just check temperatures with a infrared thermometer. I figured this would be the best tool I could have on the mountain making small changes. I also snapped a picture of the parallel bar locked into the secondary and by that picture, it looks like my secondary could be moved in about .060. Go figure! Like I said I am baffled at this point and will let the infrared gun tell me one step at a time what I need to do to cool these things down. Also, would this thing pull a 40* helix ok? With the torque it has, I was thinking it probably would. BTW, I tried to set deflection by the book (haven't done that ever) and what a biotch.............You can press that belt down 1/2" to 1-1/2" depending on how hard you push. All the book says is to take the slack out and before the bottom pulls up. Well that's easier said than done! Made a tool for measuring that too...........

Aaron

P.s. Made my own alignment bar so I know it is accurate!

 

[RockyMtn.Kris]

I was thinking of adding heavier weights to mine to pick up track speed (I am pretty steady at 40mph climing in deep pow), but I also thought the helix may be the main problem, my 600 summit pulled a 40* helix no prob, so to me a 36 on a piped m1000 just seems like overkill. Right now I am running a 42/36 with the cutler conversion, it takes off quick but unfortunatly tops out just as fast, clutches were fairly hot as well, I am starting to think that the 1000 has way to much torque for such a shallow degree, as the more torque it puts to the sec, the more it squeezes causing the pri to slip. The engine never really seemed to be under much load, and was reving at ~7600, I am ordering 75-85 cutler weights and a strait 38 helix, but maybe I should change that to a 40 or 42.

Whats your take Mr. Quick?

You can only compare these two if the helix diameters are the same. Im not sure, but I dont think they are, so 40* on your Ski-Doo is not 40* on your Cat. Its like having two different levers to pry out a rock, both at the same angle, but one longer than the other.
I agree with you on the shallow helix, I have had better luck a little steeper. Ive rum 38 and 42/38 (40) and pulls it in any condition at elevation.

So back to the thread, Ive been through belts like others and its been a long road. Last season, one belt. (046). All the fixes are in this thread so stay with it. And one last word, the 060 sucks and is a crank-busting POS

 

[AaronBND]

You can only compare these two if the helix diameters are the same. Im not sure, but I dont think they are, so 40* on your Ski-Doo is not 40* on your Cat. Its like having two different levers to pry out a rock, both at the same angle, but one longer than the other.
I agree with you on the shallow helix, I have had better luck a little steeper. Ive rum 38 and 42/38 (40) and pulls it in any condition at elevation.

So back to the thread, Ive been through belts like others and its been a long road. Last season, one belt. (046). All the fixes are in this thread so stay with it. And one last word, the 060 sucks and is a crank-busting POS

So what are you currently running for clutching? I am working on a fix for the motor movement. I do think this is one factor in blowing belts.

Aaron

 

[RockyMtn.Kris]

So what are you currently running for clutching? I am working on a fix for the motor movement. I do think this is one factor in blowing belts.

Aaron

Mostly I have run a straight 38 (CPC conversion) sno pro green in the middle hole. Stock Ti in the primary and Dalton adjustable weights (75g) with only a few grams added. (heel loaded)
4-6k, twin pipes, m8 gearing

Motor movement is a problem for sure. I looked at mine yesterday and I have two broken motormounts

 

[AaronBND]

Motor movement is a problem for sure. I looked at mine yesterday and I have two broken motormounts

When you say broken, do you mean the rubber is tore or what? Where are they broken and which ones? I looked mine over good and don't see any broken, but my rubber torque stop between my DD and motor mount plate looks like it got beat up by a flat-tip screwdriver a couple times. This might be causing excessive movement.

Aaron

 

[serge]

installing the pto front mount really helps, we have been running 83.5g weight with stock clutching. when u change the secondary helix to 40 degrees and a black/silver spring, we have been running 85g weight. these combo's seem to help the belt blowing issues

 

[krom]

We have been having good luck in the flat lands with setting the clutch offset to 1.507" (cat actually changed the spec to this for all 2010 machines) You may have to have the secondary machined to run this offset though

 

[serge]

its the old crossfire offset tool

 

[Sno Junkie]

When you say broken, do you mean the rubber is tore or what? Where are they broken and which ones? I looked mine over good and don't see any broken, but my rubber torque stop between my DD and motor mount plate looks like it got beat up by a flat-tip screwdriver a couple times. This might be causing excessive movement.

Aaron

check to make sure your bulkhead where it attaches to the motor mounts on both sides has not broke. Mine was broken off and a buddies was full of stress cracks ready to break.
People who are going to solid mounts are doing the wrong fix in my opinion. The vibration will end up breaking the aluminum mounts at the bulkhead.

http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177805

 

[MR.T]

blowing belts

A freind and I have the same 08 m1000's. The only time we have blown belts is when we over rev the things in certain conditions. Like road or lake racing (not smart but having fun with an M). Hit an icy patch (doing high speeds) it over rev's, then the belt climbs over the primary and the towers on the primary destroys the belt every time!
We will not run any other belt but the 046. Mainly because the 060's are too expensive. All other brand of belts do not fare well on our sleds.
We also watch our belt deflection closely.
We run 86gm weights and 46 deg helix for 3 to 7000 ft elev.
Just some thoughts here, hope it helps.

 

[AaronBND]

A freind and I have the same 08 m1000's. The only time we have blown belts is when we over rev the things in certain conditions. Like road or lake racing (not smart but having fun with an M). Hit an icy patch (doing high speeds) it over rev's, then the belt climbs over the primary and the towers on the primary destroys the belt every time!
We will not run any other belt but the 046. Mainly because the 060's are too expensive. All other brand of belts do not fare well on our sleds.
We also watch our belt deflection closely.
We run 86gm weights and 46 deg helix for 3 to 7000 ft elev.
Just some thoughts here, hope it helps.

Very interesting post! Where do you adjust your belt deflection to? How far sticks above the sheaves on the 046? I am wondering if that is not what happened to me because I did notice that the very top edge on my primary sheaves has a black belt ring around it. I was running down the trail pretty hard when it happened. I have 75 gram weight in it right now, but am going to try some 80 grams and see what happens. One question for you.......why do you run such a steep helix? What kind of riding do you do? Boondocking, hillclimbing, etc.. Thanks Mr T.

Aaron

 

[serge]

I would skip the 80g's and go to 83.5, I ran 08 m1000 last weekend in 2-3 feet of pow, checked the belt this week and no issues. rpm ranged from 7-7200 only issue I had was not enough venting in the hood, motor was starving for air

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I would junk the TI clutch spring, ran a few that should have been the same load index and the sled wouldn't work, and they are thicker in most cases. Last year I ran 2 046 that didn't last much over a 100 miles have over 400 on first 060 and now over 500 on the last 060, but its about a 1/8 thinner than it should be, but have blown one yet. If you think the 046 is the best belt, think again you gain 200 rpm which means its slipping. Why in the heii would you want a clutch setup that requires more slippage. Just start with getting the motor held in place, extra torque arm and torque stop or what ever. You may want to try taking away spring tension on the secondary so it can shift up further and let the primary grab.
Think about this you are running the right rpm and if the primary actually got traction it would pull the rpm down, so in that case you would need lighter weights to hit rpm. I disagree with cutler. you want to be in the 7600 to 7800 rpm range if you set it to 7450 you will fall out of the power to easy. to me the best power has been in the 7500-7600 but if you climb in elevation and get under 7500 much you can feel the loss of power. The tach could very though. I use the one on my bd box.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I would skip the 80g's and go to 83.5, I ran 08 m1000 last weekend in 2-3 feet of pow, checked the belt this week and no issues. rpm ranged from 7-7200 only issue I had was not enough venting in the hood, motor was starving for air

to low of rpm for a slp pipe