An airbag story

[catmanm7]

ttt

I have a brand new bag that came with and empty canister. I had if filled at a paintball shop. I rode once so I have not even tried a test deploy. I will test deploy mine taking a video of it, I might even have a pull type gauge, to see what amount of pressure it takes to deploy mine. Sounds like they are all different.
I will explain my statement that I posted a couple days ago. It sounds like if BCA is going to the extent of making an easier trigger method, then they are admitting that they may have messed up the first one. Maybe %50 of the bags have problems and the other %50 do not, but if you are going to try to sell an update to a safety device that should be working right outta the box, i think that is wrong. I would rather sell mine then try to bandaid a fix on to it knowing that it wasnt right the first time. Just my 2 cents. But like I said I havent even tried it.... more to come

 

[Edgehead]

Thanks for all the feedback. We debated this subject and compromised on charging our own direct cost for the Easy Pull Kit. Most people like the current pull force, some people think it's too hard and others are concerned it could deploy too easily if the trigger gets snagged on something. Since the volume on these parts is quite low, and made in the U.S., then they're actually quite expensive. Believe it or not, $20 only covers our material cost and nothing else.

Mapmaker, yes, the trigger will be lower on the shoulder strap in the next generation.

Snow dog, it depends who you ordered the pack from. If it's coming from BCA, then it will have the new pull pins; if it's from a retailer, then it might not. Either way, just give us a call if you think it's too hard to pull. 303-417-1345.

We've found that there's huge variation in peoples' preferences when it comes to pull force on a trigger. The most important thing is to try it at least once before or after buying so you have a good idea of what is required. If you have a smart retailer, they'll be prepared to refill the cylinder for you if you want to do a test. If not, check out the local SCUBA or paintball shop and go over there to do your practice pulls.

Feel free to shoot more questions my way. Edge@backcountryaccess.com.

Cheers,
Bruce E.
VP, BCA

 

[BCACanada]

I agree, I just bought one for me and the wife! And for $700 each they should work for ALL user's regardless of their strength. Am I wrong here folks?

BCA has posted on YouTube and on their own blog, many videos of both men and women pulling the Float30...and I, a woman, have deployed many demo models myself....its not about strength, its about knowing how it feels to deploy your airbag. And when dealing with any type of rescue gear, you need to understand how to use it when in a panic situation. We have heard of many people repeatedly just going thru the motions to memorize the action of where the trigger is and how to pull...just like a parachute. Or like using your tranceiver....practice is important and knowing how the gear is going to work for you. Not wise to leave the practice until the emergency happens.

 

[Flange]

BCACanada, it sounds like you're saying that you need to practice actually pulling the trigger on these bags in order to guarantee you will perform the task properly in an emergency? There are people on here claiming that grown men are reefing on these triggers with all their strength and the bag still isn't deploying. You are claiming its operator error and that they need more training? If you have to rely on finesse and technique to blow these bags during a frantic emergency, then in my opinion, your product has a design flaw. I can catch my ABS trigger on a tree branch and blow it by accident....just the way I like it.

 

[backcountryislife]

I think a big part of it, is if you DO have one that has a harder than overage pull then test pulling it will let you know.

Is the issue (assuming that is IS an issue) of the line freezing somehow, addressed with this update? Or, what is recommended to avoid that problem, just bringing the pack indoors each night?

 

[wrtmani]

And when dealing with any type of rescue gear, you need to understand how to use it when in a panic situation.

Flange--I think what she's trying to reiterate is that practicing knowing where the handle is located in a panic situation is key, not that there is a "finesse" involved. Being able to pull the cord when you're tumbling and getting pounded by snow chunks and you don't know what end is up when things go to s^*t is what your life depends on.

It's no different in using a gun or swinging a hammer. The more you practice and use something the more profiecent and familiar you are with it so when that item is called upon to do it's job it will perform as expected.

 

[Flange]

I dont remember reading they couldn't find the trigger. I read that the bags didn't deploy when the trigger was pulled. There is a big difference between not being able to find the trigger, and pulling it with no results.

 

[dragonwagon]

I agree with Flange, in that no amount of "practice and finesse" is going to deploy your bag if the trigger mechanism won't activate. As ELUDNU's post states they could "pull until your arm broke". This tells me that its more than just a problem of trigger pull force. my bag has been test fired with the original bottle but I will be pulling mine as soon as I get home since I now have an exchange bottle (dealer wasn't set up for refills) that has never been fired.

 

[modsledr]

It seems like folks are reading an aweful lot into the statements that have been made on tis post.

All I see is that there were some packs that did not deploy due to hard to pull triggers.

BCA has recognized 2 things...a batch of hard to pull triggers, and a consumer driven need for a lighter pull trigger than their standard pack (not including the batch of harder to pull triggers).

And finally, a recommendation to practice with your pack, which to me is a no brainer, REGARDLESS of what brand of pack you use. There have been ABS pack failures reported throughout the years they have been on the market...it is a mechanical thing and occasionally they will fail.

I agree with Flange, in that no amount of "practice and finesse" is going to deploy your bag if the trigger mechanism won't activate. QUOTE] this is EXACTLY why you should test fire you pack repeatedly with the same canister


One of the reasons we went with the BCA in the first place was the ability to practice live deployments over and over. We now know exactly what it should feel like (we have 4 packs total, 2 of last years and 2 of this years), so when we got a bad canister, there was NO DOUBT what the problem was. We contacted BCA and sent in the canister and received on back, and the first thing we did was hook it up and fire it off.

I would be interested to see the consumer feedback the first couple of years of the ABS packs existence. All products go through a development and refinement cycle when they are new.

My hat is off the BCA for listening to the market and developing a pack at a lower price point, and for also listening to the market about the actual use of the product.

 

[Flange]

Modsledr, I wouldn't be interested in being part of a "development and refinement cycle" for something like this. Its the primary reason I chose the bag I did...because it had been done already. Good luck with it though.

 

[snowdog484]

Picking my float30 up on wed. I'll keep ya all posted on how it fires!

 

[Extreme-One]

My wife and I both have BCA Avy bags and we set them off last night. I found mine easy to pull and it went off no problem. For my wife the handle rides a little high and she finds herself pulling across her chest and it was a little more difficult but she did get it done. I think I'll look at getting her the easy pull option. I find it real easy to use, re-pack and set back up.

 

[onepicknick]

I got the float 30 on a waiting list now it got me a little concerned I guess I will test it this weekend just to make sure

 

[JHG]

I wouldn't be interested in being part of a "development and refinement cycle" for something like this. Its the primary reason I chose the bag I did...because it had been done already. Good luck with it though.

So your saying you don't want to try the new parachute I just finished developing? I'll sell it to you for half price...if it doesn't work the first time you pull it, tap the altimeter twice, push up and to the left on the handle, then grab it with your left hand, and pull down and to the rear with about 45 lbs of pulling force. That works 50% of the time, all the time....might have to practice a couple time in the garage though.

 

[modsledr]

Modsledr, I wouldn't be interested in being part of a "development and refinement cycle" for something like this. Its the primary reason I chose the bag I did...because it had been done already. Good luck with it though.

So are you saying you dont want your safety gear to be continually developed and refined? The fact that BCA had a batch of bad canisters has nothing to do with listening to consumers needs and making the necessary adjustment. Interesting note...ABS has had the opposite issue...HELI Skiers have complained about their triggers being TOO EASY, and accidental triggers (inside a helicopter is a bad place for an accidental deployment). Ultimately, the bigger point is to practice deployment often before you need it.

What brand of pack do you wear? have you practiced with it? Often? Will it deploy when you need it? (if you haven't practiced with it...how do you know?) Good luck with that.

So your saying you don't want to try the new parachute I just finished developing? I'll sell it to you for half price...if it doesn't work the first time you pull it, tap the altimeter twice, push up and to the left on the handle, then grab it with your left hand, and pull down and to the rear with about 45 lbs of pulling force. That works 50% of the time, all the time....might have to practice a couple time in the garage though.

So it's laughable to practice with your safety equipment? I dont care what brand you wear...if you dont practice with it (more than once) and understand how it works, how will you know you can count on it when the chit hits the fan??

bash away

 

[Flange]

No Modsledr, read my post again. I said "I wouldn't be interested in being part of a "development and refinement cycle" for something like this".

Maybe the Heliskiers should consider waiting to install their triggers AFTER they get out of the helicopter. If I was the pilot, I wouldn't allow armed packs inside. Again, I'm ok with it being "easy" to trigger, but I realize I need to be careful with it.

I will happily tell you what bag I have. After what I would consider a thorough evalutation a couple of years ago, a group of four of us all purchased ABS bags.

I tested the bag the day I bought it, and have test fired it at the beginning of each season since. Do I practice using it? Other than these test firings, no I don't. Do I think I need to practice. No I really don't. Whats to practice? Its the easiest to operate safety device I carry. Do I think I can reach up and pull the trigger when I need to? Absolutely I do. Now...will I really be able to grab that trigger as I'm tumbling in an avalanche, no doubt $hitting my pants in the process, arms and legs flailing, getting snow rammed down my throat while gasping for air? Man I sure hope so but how do any of us really know until it happens? How would I practice something like that? Maybe on a trampoline, blindfolded, while someone sprays water at me with the garden hose? And regardless of what bag I have, its all about getting your hand on that trigger and pulling it.

The point of this thread is...what happens after you get your hand on that trigger? I expect my ABS bag to blow, just like these people expected their BCA bags to blow. I'm confident that when I pull my ABS trigger about 1/8 of an inch...up, down, sideways, whatever...the bag will blow. Trust me, if I doesn't blow and I survive, and it still doesn't blow when I try to fire it again, I'll be on here telling everyone about it that cares to listen.

 

[backcountryislife]

My ABS has the trigger on it at all times, no matter what. I don't remove it, because I see that as a way for dust, dirt, whatever to get into the mechanism (and cause I'm lazy). I leave the velcro on & I KNOW (because I have practiced) that I and my 105 lb wife can pull it through the velcro. In 4 years of wearing, tossing in the truck, pulling out of the truck, putting in the closet, taking off for lunch... I've never had an accidental fire.

I don't have to practice with the ABS more than that once, because I know it works, also you get a canister when you buy one that you blow, and you then know what kind of force it takes to blow it. The idea that you need to practice all the time is silly to me, bring your hand to it often if you question you muscle memory of getting the handle in an emergency, but I see little point in actually pulling it often.

That said, I find it hard to believe that this is some systemic problem with the BCA. They've got TONS of packs out there now & tens of thousands of deployments I'd guess (maybe more) and they work. They're harder to pull... but I can't believe that someone about to go down a slide wouldn't pull hard enough. Sitting in your kitchen it's easy to go 1/2azz pulling it, when the SH** hits the fan, you're gonna yank like hell!!! (having actually used mine, I know I sure did!)

I'm sure every now & then there is a misfire from any of the bags, it's a pretty technical device & you won't convince me that there isn't a 1/100,000 (or something like that) chance of a mech. failure with ANY of them.

I'd sure still like to hear an answer to what ACTUALLY happened with these packs, if they got a frozen cable, or whatever... then tell us how to avoid that. I don't wear a bca, but I have 5 friends that do & I'll gladly tell them to put a dab of grease on the cable, or whatever the heck the fix/ solution/ preventative action is.

The fact that these all failed in one batch makes me thing that there was something environmental (situational) that allowed this to happen, and people need to know what to avoid.

 

[JHG]

So it's laughable to practice with your safety equipment? I dont care what brand you wear...if you dont practice with it (more than once) and understand how it works, how will you know you can count on it when the chit hits the fan??

bash away

I'm not bashing, but my post sounded similar to what some people are saying in this thread. As far as practice goes, I agree. You need to be comfortable with the operation of what you are using.

I was in the military and believe me; we practiced things a lot before actually having to rely on what you know in the field. We practiced over and over how to clear a malfunctioning M-4 when you are being shot at and I practiced over and over how to deal with a malfunctioning parachute when jumping. In my last couple years I worked on a team that did the final field-testing of the SOFTAPS parachute system that now has replaced the MC1-1 parachute that Army and Air Force used for years.

One thing we never did was take something out on a mission, jump a parachute or trust your life to something that had previously malfunctioned without a clear and avoidable cause. If a unit on the west coast had a chute malfunction, we grounded all jumpers using that same make and model chute until the cause was found and fixed. More practice was NEVER a fix of a mechanical malfunction.

With a malfunctioning weapon in combat you usually have time to take cover get it fixed. When skydiving or in an Avalanche, there is no cover and you die in seconds when a malfunction occurs. The difference between those two is, you have a reserve chute when you jump...there is no reserve Avalanche bag. Here's a real statistic for you, in a stressful situation, when adrenaline starts taking over, you forget 50% of what you have been trained to do. I hope the 50% you forget isn't the half that is storing what to do when you didn't pull your bag hard enough to deploy it.

Glock handguns are made simple and the primary choice of law enforcement because there are no switches, safeties or special operations to make it work. You point and pull the trigger.

I worry about enough on the mountain when I'm riding. Every time I drop in a hole I hope I don't pile up the sled and it makes it back out.... the last thing I want to have in the back of my head is "please, baby Jesus, I hope my Avalanche bag works if I need it". The choice of Air Bag is up to you, make the choice that you are comfortable with because you are the one who trusts your life to it. When I purchased mine the BCA was just being developed and I didn't wait and spent the extra $400 on the bag I felt like I could trust. If you trust yours, then that’s all that matters right? But no amount of practice will fix a mechanical malfunction.

 

[eludnu]

After riding this last week in Revy (Which was AWESOME!) I was stunned to meet more than a few riders who had never test fired their airbags. In fact the norm in the many I spoke with, was very few had. I talked to one group of 8 riders, (five BCA bags in the group) who had never test fired, and avy conditions on the first day were quite high.

As I mentioned in my previous post. NO, and I mean NO amount of pressure would deploy the two new bags I was referring too. I am not product bashing here. I'm simply stating that IF you have a bag with a trigger problem, following the manufacturers guidelines and test firing it will make it apparent pretty darn fast. No amount of effort will suffice.

This is different than a bag which has a hard trigger pull. My personal BCA Float 30 deploys with no more or less pressure than I would prefer, or expect. I'd say it's perfect. YOURS MAY NOT FIRE AT ALL. For the love of Pete people, Please, Please, Please, test your airbag! Once is all it takes. If you do find that your bag requires more effort than you would prefer, it sounds as if the updates from BCA will address that concern.

It would be beyond sad to discover you are the potentially rare owner of a bag which needs to be inspected, but you (or your friends) never tested it first, until it was too late.

For those of you who are wondering: Would I personally buy another BCA Float 30 Airbag? YES. But I would be a FOOL not too test it, just as I would be with any other avy bag.

 

[ren]

Just got off the phone with a VERY helpful gentleman named Matt at BCA who worked through my issue with the trigger pull being stiff. Excellent customer service. It was a pleasure to deal with them and has me thinking about upgrading some of my other avy gear to BCA. Anyone can make a good product, not everyone offers great customer service as BCA did!
(The construction of the bag surpassed my expectations as far as fit, comfort and pack extras)...Buy one and make sure you test it out!