I don't run the assist. I run RKT secondary now as of 3 weeks ago.
What's better for RPM heavier primary or lighter weights?
- Thread starter AaronBND
- Start date
Must have missed that part. What are you seeing for track speed. Do you have any gauges that you can compare your stock tach to, might have to do on a lap top but there is a chance your stock tach is off a little.
Now why would you pull from the heel and not the tip? I was thinking just the opposite........
Aaron
What pipe/y-pipe/can are you runnig?
D
I just purchased my secondary kit from Kelsey 09 m8 162 with slp single. He told me to use the stock cat light tip weights and start with either the cat orange white or yellow white primary spring. He said those weights worked best with his setup. You may want to start there. I will be riding my new secondary this weekend for the first time. Hoping to see a real difference from before...we will see.
It is his custom torsion spring. It's really dark green I think!
I have the MTX adjustables and can't use the stock weights because of the spider being shimmed to them.
Aaron
i agree with wyoboy on removing weight from the heel, my experience is on the m7 but it should be similar as they use basically the same clutches(mine are all but the same as i'm running an '08 m8 primary and 10.4" sec.). i dicked with clutching about every ride for 2 or 3 seasons until i got it where it is now and i think its about as good as it will get. i tried all kinds of setups, cat primary springs from gold to orange/white, many SLP primary springs and a few polaris primary springs. a few different weight set ups with stock and CPC adjustables, 42/36 progressive helix which was very inconsistant as somebody mentioned about the progressives and many secondary springs including the first version of the torsianol kit that RKT sold, but with the torsianol kit my rpms were bouncing all over the place. i tried "THE" m7 setup that everybody swore by with the gold cat primary and the orange cat secondary spring and didn't like it, it felt very sluggish and running the stiff orange cat sec. spring was the only time i ever blew belts. i agree that that spring is to stiff. i ended up with the stock 36 helix with the orange/black SW compression style sec. spring with S/A with the stock yellow/white primary spring and the CPC weights at 66 grams(stock was 67 in my sled), dont remember exactly what screws are in them but i ended up with a bit of weight in the heels and almost filled the tip with as much as i could get without the screw sticking out of the tip of the weight. just like now everyone said light tip was the way to go on the m7 but with the light tip my primary was always hotter than the secondary which led me to believe there was not enough squeeze on the belt from the primary in the higher rpms so i started adding to the tips and it got better. the more i added to the tips the harder it pulled on the top end and the primary temps came down. now my m7 will pull 7900-8000 rpms all day at 8000' elevation without excessive heat in either clutch. my sled will get up and gone as quick as any of the poos or doos i ride with, which is surprising with how soft the bottom end is on a stock m7, and my backshift is spot on. i know its a different engine and my experience may not pertain to an m8 or m1000 but thats what i went through to get good clutching out of the "crappy" clutches cat gave us to deal with.
Out of any of the sleds the m1000 likes to be loaded, it will maintain squeeze and drop weight. Either take it from the heel or 1g from each
I have the hollow steel rivets (2 ounce) in both holes right now for a total of 81 ounces. I will try going down to the aluminum 1 ounce rivets in both holes. I would love to get to where I am at like 7800rpm down where we unload at 5500' and 7700rpm at riding area which is at 7000-7500'. Thanks guys. I will report back. Maybe like Wyo said my tach is just off, because it runs like a scalded ape right now at 7500!! Kinda hate messing with it, but want more if it's there........
Aaron
Aaron
You have to take the weights out, just take the one in the heel and leave the other, You can ask slp and I am pretty sure they would recommend taking the heel out, My MDS weights work the same and thats what I was told to do with them also. If your not sure you can always remove the other also and add the 1g. If you can get it to 7600 at elevation I would leave it.
I
Another primary spring that works really well in the M8's with the SLP pipe is the D&D white. I ran it with 72.5g Cat weights.
I ride at 7 to 10,000 feet with my 09 M8. Here is my setup. SLP pipe kit. They recommend 8000 to 8100 RPM. SLP black/pink spring. 68 gr. cat weights. RKT sec. with spring in second lightest hole. Sled pulls 8200 on the trail at 8000 ft. In the deep at 10,000 ft it drops to 8000 to 8050 rpm's. It pulls good at 8000 rpm. I was running 70 gr. weights and could only get 7800 at elevation. The sled pulled hard at the start but would not hold it. I preferred the heavier weights but it wouldn't hit the desired rpm's. I think Cats like a lighter tip weight. I'm a firm believer now after screwing around with the cat secondary and not seeing any improvement in the shift that the stock clutch is junk. Especially in the steep and deep.
Good thread
Clutching is so interesting and so many theories. So hear goes I will give you mine.
I never use a spring over 300 on top end.My favorite in aspirated is cats O/W 142/290.
I hate adjustable weights mainly because of were you can take weight off or add. Now with that said I have a custom set of turbo weights I sell but the only place you can load them is the tip. Mainly because turbo love load and heavy tips.
So on aspirated sleds I stay with cat weight for consistency.
So with that said AaronBND if you brought me your sled . I would take your weights out put cat 77g weights in it and yes you can do this and a cat O/W witch they do not make any more so we have found better springs with same rates.
Then as far a secondary goes sounds like you are set with a RKT the key with that is correct spring tension. Changing helix % the most I recommend is like a 42/36 but the main in the mountains is the 36 for back shift in my opinion.
Now with that said that is were you fine tune to get exactly what you want because not all sled can be clutched the same. If you need 200 more rpm's I would take a G out of the tip I have found that if its on the top end that you need the RPM then take it out of the tip. In all of my testing cats love lighter tipped weights.
Now turbo Clutching total new world and that is a different topic.
Good luck
Clutching is so interesting and so many theories. So hear goes I will give you mine.
I never use a spring over 300 on top end.My favorite in aspirated is cats O/W 142/290.
I hate adjustable weights mainly because of were you can take weight off or add. Now with that said I have a custom set of turbo weights I sell but the only place you can load them is the tip. Mainly because turbo love load and heavy tips.
So on aspirated sleds I stay with cat weight for consistency.
So with that said AaronBND if you brought me your sled . I would take your weights out put cat 77g weights in it and yes you can do this and a cat O/W witch they do not make any more so we have found better springs with same rates.
Then as far a secondary goes sounds like you are set with a RKT the key with that is correct spring tension. Changing helix % the most I recommend is like a 42/36 but the main in the mountains is the 36 for back shift in my opinion.
Now with that said that is were you fine tune to get exactly what you want because not all sled can be clutched the same. If you need 200 more rpm's I would take a G out of the tip I have found that if its on the top end that you need the RPM then take it out of the tip. In all of my testing cats love lighter tipped weights.
Now turbo Clutching total new world and that is a different topic.
Good luck
D
I agree with MM above.
One thing I may add is that the Dalton Pro weights are the same profile as the cat weights but have a touch more tip weight.
The CP gold/white has the least amount of coils so coil bind is less.
Don.
One thing I may add is that the Dalton Pro weights are the same profile as the cat weights but have a touch more tip weight.
The CP gold/white has the least amount of coils so coil bind is less.
Don.
R
OK Gentlemen here is a brain teaser for you running stock set up as far as clutching!
07 M1000 162
Riding elevation is 5000-10000
I weigh about 230lbs. 5'10"
I have a speedwerks Y pipe, stock pipe with no insulation "JUNK", speedwerks can runs good feels good but..............
Im only pulling 7450ish on the trail and only getting 6900 at around 8000+
now runs good feels good is a stable of sleds and a long history of riding!
I have a very mean running 03 900MC SE but its not in an M chassis!
having said that the diamond drive clutch I dont understand so I am at a loss!
FYI the 900 has a SLP full Pipe set stock primary 49 helix red/white secondary! it will pull 7900 rpms at any elevation any time of year with the skiis about 3ft in the air until you let off but has always been excellent in the trees but still not an M!
07 M1000 162
Riding elevation is 5000-10000
I weigh about 230lbs. 5'10"
I have a speedwerks Y pipe, stock pipe with no insulation "JUNK", speedwerks can runs good feels good but..............
Im only pulling 7450ish on the trail and only getting 6900 at around 8000+
now runs good feels good is a stable of sleds and a long history of riding!
I have a very mean running 03 900MC SE but its not in an M chassis!
having said that the diamond drive clutch I dont understand so I am at a loss!
FYI the 900 has a SLP full Pipe set stock primary 49 helix red/white secondary! it will pull 7900 rpms at any elevation any time of year with the skiis about 3ft in the air until you let off but has always been excellent in the trees but still not an M!
Well, since I just threw in the red/white (125/340) from Speedwerx and it did not give me my 200rpm's, I will remove 2g from the weights and then if I am over revving I will drop the spring down on the top side number to whatever I need to, to remove any extra stress on the spider with that much spring pressure. I did talk to Dustin at SLP and he said to remove from the tip. I wish I would of done better research on the adjustable weights as it's not the easiest thing in the world to "play" with these MTX weights as far as experimenting removing from toe and heel.
Aaron
Aaron
Good thread here.
We have all struggled with the DD secondaries and no really good answers yet. I think the first thing to keep in mind is these secondaries are very " ACTIVE" constantly searching/ shifting. The old reverse cat secondary sticks and shifts in lurches, and many of use learned to clutch that and take advantage of that. I have found the DD just not respondsive to helix angles.
NOthing like the old reversce secondary. I have created more clutching problems for my M sleds with big helix angles.
I agree with MM, never seen a spring over 300lbs work right or feel good.....last ditch patch at the race track only.
I think overall we keep letting the DD secondary over power our primaries and dictate shifting and thats WRONG.
Heavy weights at 7500 rpm won't squeeze the belt as hard as lighter weights at 8000........that engineering chart has been around and in some of the clutching books, bottom line you are not a secondary class citizen if your sled works better with lighter weights. Heavy weights are no answer to anything. Good tuning is following results. So when you put in a heavier spring or heavier weight and nothing happens, changes are likely being made to the wrong tuning component.
6 years and 4 m sleds later I am running the 36 helix out of my 05M7, I have 5 other custom cut helix's I should sell, gold cat primary spring , shorter 72.5 cat weights ( ground down from 75's ), EPI maroon sec spring. I find the key for my sled is adjusting daily for snow and elevation the secondary spring with the big white plastic adjuster. You have to be able to adjust that secondary spring, the encapuslated helix is a flatland no lookie pull and ride rental sled setup. Guys like the retro tang spring setup because its adjustable to some degree.
Keep it up .....good thread.
We have all struggled with the DD secondaries and no really good answers yet. I think the first thing to keep in mind is these secondaries are very " ACTIVE" constantly searching/ shifting. The old reverse cat secondary sticks and shifts in lurches, and many of use learned to clutch that and take advantage of that. I have found the DD just not respondsive to helix angles.
NOthing like the old reversce secondary. I have created more clutching problems for my M sleds with big helix angles.
I agree with MM, never seen a spring over 300lbs work right or feel good.....last ditch patch at the race track only.
I think overall we keep letting the DD secondary over power our primaries and dictate shifting and thats WRONG.
Heavy weights at 7500 rpm won't squeeze the belt as hard as lighter weights at 8000........that engineering chart has been around and in some of the clutching books, bottom line you are not a secondary class citizen if your sled works better with lighter weights. Heavy weights are no answer to anything. Good tuning is following results. So when you put in a heavier spring or heavier weight and nothing happens, changes are likely being made to the wrong tuning component.
6 years and 4 m sleds later I am running the 36 helix out of my 05M7, I have 5 other custom cut helix's I should sell, gold cat primary spring , shorter 72.5 cat weights ( ground down from 75's ), EPI maroon sec spring. I find the key for my sled is adjusting daily for snow and elevation the secondary spring with the big white plastic adjuster. You have to be able to adjust that secondary spring, the encapuslated helix is a flatland no lookie pull and ride rental sled setup. Guys like the retro tang spring setup because its adjustable to some degree.
Keep it up .....good thread.
I agree with Cat Man. I screwed with the primary tryingto get my r's up and nothing I changed made a difference. As mentioned above the cat secondary works better on the flat ground. It does not belong in the Deep stuff. When I tune it is on the mountain. Same day, same hill, same temperature, same snow. Basically everything is the same. I pick a day that has somewhat of the same kind of conditions that I like to ride in. I tune for those conditions. Not every day will be the same as I like and the sled will run different so I live with it. People make the mistake of tuning when the snow is powdery and cold, and then go home and change something, then go back up the next week under different conditions, and the sled reacts differently. So they go home quite pi--ed off and change again. On and on and on. My best envestment on the newer cats was a torsional secondary. I run a CPC on my m7 and a RTK on my m8. Put a clutch kit on and save all the tuning nightmares. Then if something is not quite like it should be the secondary can be dialed to snow conditions.
That fixes the secondary, but what if you are not getting the rpm's you need? That is what we are trying to figure out on this thread. What is the best answer?
Aaron
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