Getting Your Buddies to Wear Their Gear

[boondocker97]

I am usually very comfortable with the 4 or 5 places I have ridden regularly in the last 20 years. Seems like once a year though we end up venturing out and riding somewhere new or I am less familiar with, and yes, I do exercise some extra care in those situations. I have taken avalanche classes, field days, and make it to every refresher I can. Unfortunately, it wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I took the initiative to really get myself educated. Some of my friends are a bit behind the curve. They live far enough away that attending an avy course is not exactly convenient for them. Three hour drive one-way on a weeknight, but I still pressure them to make the effort. So I'm trying to pass the information along to them as best I can until they can make it.

Here is one case from last season very near to one of the places I ride a lot.
http://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/default/files/140101_Onion_Basin_Avalanche_Fatality_public.pdf

First thing, I realize that the avalanche danger in this case was very severe and mistake #1 was probably being out there that day. However, even the avy instructors will tell you that on the worst advisory days you can still go riding if you are smart about it. One experienced rider, one limited, and one inexperienced. Seems they were trying to stick to the low angle terrain, but the remote trigger situation happened and they got caught in a spot that doesn't look much different from the "safe" spot in the photo in this thread. I talked to the avalanche center guys about this incident, and they said the guy that was partially buried was up to his shoulders. Only way he got out was he was able to work one arm free and reach back over his head and work the shovel out of his pack. Still took 30min. I don't care how much heart someone has, they are not going to dig you out even 3 feet deep in avalanche debris with out having tools.

There are a couple ways I can see this sort of thing happening easily:

1. I am typically one of the people who ends up taking newer riders out and I have found myself in a bad situation with them before. Had some newer riders along. Met a friend of a friend in the parking lot that knew the area too and had gear so I figured he would be good to tag along. We got into a spot where everyone was playing. I got off into the trees messing around by myself and the new acquaintance took the others over a ridge and right into a ravine below a steep wind loaded face. I came out of the trees and followed the tracks. Stopped at the top of little ridge and yelled at them to get the hell out of there. Could have been the same situation if I had got stuck and one of them went to climbing. Everything would have been separated and buried.

2. Ever had a storm roll in on you before you made it back to the truck? Start navigating a tree line to make it out and accidentally find yourself in a runout zone.

3. Have a group of 4 and split of into two groups of two. A mistake is made and two get caught up while the other two have no idea what is going on around the bend.

As much as we don't want it to happen, mistakes get made. Part of being educated and informed is knowing how to make the best of the situation after those mistakes are made.

On another note, this summer I had the unfortunate experience of administering first aid to a dirt bike rider this summer who had a collision with a car. The rider was in bad shape and was unconscious, but had a pulse and ragged breaths. When the breathing stopped, I gave rescue breaths right up until the heart stopped. EMTs just showed up at that point and took over. They were never able to revive the person. I'm not an emotional person, and I didn't know them from Adam, but it was a pretty s***ty feeling seeing someone die like that. I can't imagine what it would be like working on one of my actual friends and have them slip away under your watch, knowing you didn't do everything in your power to save them.

So call it irrational fear if you want.

 

[Devilmanak]

By Toolbag's rational, no reason to bring a condom to the party, just assume that you know that your partner has no diseases and pull out. I mean I have never seen that NOT work, so it must work every time.
Much smarter to do that AND suit up for the ride.

 

[dirtrebel]

here's how to tell them

Here's a text I just sent my buddies, The cooke city incident last week gave me the courage to finally say something to my friends, maybe in some way Donnie's death will help someone out there have a second chance at life. most of my buddies wear gear but a few don't. I should add I know Donnie was wearing gear (he just made a bad choice) and his partner made a heroic effort to save him, this incident was just the last straw for me and my relationship with my buddies! I also posted this on the montana avalanche fatality thread but figured I would put it here in case some don't check the montana section. We owe it to Donnie and also all the other fallen and our own families to learn from their mistakes and have the courage to do all we can to stay safe!

text message read:

Here's a group message for ya!
Going forward I will not ride with anyone who does not wear an avalanche tranceiver on their BODY and knows how to use it and does not carry a shovel and probe in their BACKPACK! I know u guys mostly don't believe in that **** and that's fine for u, if u get in an avalanche and I can't find u that was your descision, If I get in an avalanche and u can't find me that was also ur call and I'm not willing to take that chance anymore! I'm sure u will never get in an avalanche, and I probly will, just my luck not stupidity! A friend of ours, offered a private learning session and I am willing to pay for it myself if u guys wanted but I'm sure u won't. I know that stuff is expensive but if u can afford a 12-14 thousand dollar machine u can afford the gear to possibly save MY life! If u refuse to buy the stuff, don't bother inviting me to ride anymore! I know it sounds harsh but I'm not chancing it Anymore! Love u brothas!

 

[jdw1]

What dirtdevil did is very hard, I comend you!

Theres a group of guy in our small community that have gone west for years, always want to go with them but it never worked, long story short I ended up working out west back in 09 and again in 12, dream come true! In 13 I met them (locals from town) out west for 10 days of riding in Tog and Alpine then we where headed to Id and then to Revy, down in Alpine one day they triggered 3 avys, one of the hills that slid had like 5 guys on it at the same time, I was shi#in bricks, first question, who do I try to save if they get berried, that was an absolute terrifying thought, anyway long story short some of them didn't even have beacons some had them but batteries where dead or not on!!!!!!!! Found that out after this happened!
So I asked one about his beacon, didn't have one on him, he said it didn't matter if he got buried and died, I said ok what about the rest of us, he shrugged his shoulders!
Well I will not ride with these guys again, I don't want to a part of that, they been going out there for years nothing ever happened, yet, it's a matter of time.
It's hard to make decisions about who you want to ride with and who you should ride with because the ones you should ride with are not always the ones you want to ride with.
I liked pro8250's son's statement, "it's not just for me dad" that was spot on young man!

 

[Rogie1220]

I'm glad my group of riding friends are well prepared with all the avy gear on their backs and have taken the avy class and we do simulated beacon rescue exercises when the season begins just as a refresher. It's a personal choice to have an additional shovel, first aid and overnight equipment on their sleds. Mine is in my 40 lb. avy pack that I wear everywhere. Ya it's heavy and a bit uncomfortable at times....booo hooo...I'd rather have it on me than have it buried in concrete. I also carry a satellite phone in that pack. I make this sacrifice because my friends and riding partners mean that much to me!!!

I make it very clear to any one who is considering riding in the mountains with us that they have to have ALL the avy gear and class before we will ride with them. It's my life on the line if they are not prepared. I/we have been riding in the mountains for 16 plus years and have had some near misses early on when we were not fully aware of the surroundings...we were lucky...it could have been much worse. WE have learned from that and now pass that education onto the new riders.

If you think you are bullet proof...just imagine for a moment...you are caught in an avy and you are buried and awake and all you can do is wait for the poke of the probe on your body to tell you your friends have found you....but it never comes.....scares the living crap outta me!!!!

Toolbag....keep riding your style...it's worked so far...but your game of Russian Roulette will not be accepted in our group...just saying

 

[Chadx]

My wife and I wear our transceiver on our person and probe and shovel in our avy backpacks. If nothing else, having probe and shovel on your back leaves your hands free to use your transceiver to do your search and THEN pull out tour probe and shovel as needed. This compared to pulling your probe and shovel off of your sled and carrying them as you do your beacon search.

I believe it's not a case of what are the odds you'll be separated from your sled but is a case of what you do if you are. Odds are you may never be around an avy and need to do a rescue, but we still practice. I don't want my hands full of a probe and shovel as I perform a search for my wife or a friend. Or if there is a secondary slide. Or if I am in a slide and self rescue and then want to assist in another rescue. A lot of ifs but when you add them up, or are "the one", odds don't matter.

To answer the proverbial question of how often someone dies (in a slide in this case), the answer is always the same...ONCE!

This year we are adding a second shovel to our sleds as dig out shovels.

Also, a pack with only a probe, shovel is super light weight. Keep everything else in your tunnel bag. And if you have an avy airbag backpack, you'll have it on anyway so put the shovel and probe in there and be done with it.

 

[kevinm7]

If you can, get your buddies to come look at this site with you. Show them all of the valuable information that everyone on here pools together on avalanche safety and awareness, as well as many other topics. It is somewhat chilling to read about all of the people that are ignorant to the fact that this sport can be very dangerous. Most don't think they will ever be involved in an avalanche. The simple fact is that they are uneducated. Avalanches can, and do, happen in ANY terrain. It's a scary thought, but it's true.

In my group, if you don't wear your gear, you don't ride with us. Plain and simple. I wear my beacon not only for my protection, but so that I can find my friends if they happen to be buried in a slide. This is the attitude that everyone needs to have. Airbags, shovels, probes all need to be on your person. You never know when your sled is going to be trapped somewhere and you have no access to your equipment when you need it.

I don't honestly know if I could face my friend's families and tell them that their loved one passed away because I chose not to wear/use the equipment that I have readily available. Not a chance I am willing to take.

 

[kevinm7]

Here's a text I just sent my buddies, The cooke city incident last week gave me the courage to finally say something to my friends, maybe in some way Donnie's death will help someone out there have a second chance at life. most of my buddies wear gear but a few don't. I should add I know Donnie was wearing gear (he just made a bad choice) and his partner made a heroic effort to save him, this incident was just the last straw for me and my relationship with my buddies! I also posted this on the montana avalanche fatality thread but figured I would put it here in case some don't check the montana section. We owe it to Donnie and also all the other fallen and our own families to learn from their mistakes and have the courage to do all we can to stay safe!

text message read:

Here's a group message for ya!
Going forward I will not ride with anyone who does not wear an avalanche tranceiver on their BODY and knows how to use it and does not carry a shovel and probe in their BACKPACK! I know u guys mostly don't believe in that **** and that's fine for u, if u get in an avalanche and I can't find u that was your descision, If I get in an avalanche and u can't find me that was also ur call and I'm not willing to take that chance anymore! I'm sure u will never get in an avalanche, and I probly will, just my luck not stupidity! A friend of ours, offered a private learning session and I am willing to pay for it myself if u guys wanted but I'm sure u won't. I know that stuff is expensive but if u can afford a 12-14 thousand dollar machine u can afford the gear to possibly save MY life! If u refuse to buy the stuff, don't bother inviting me to ride anymore! I know it sounds harsh but I'm not chancing it Anymore! Love u brothas!

Impressive and very commendable. Kudos to you

 

[James T Kirk]

You are correct ,knowedge Is your best tool.

Unfortunately he doesn't seem to possess much of it...

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

I received extensive survival training over the course of my military career and one of the lessons hammered into my thinking is "A personal survival kit does you no good unless it's kept on your person."

I take the same approach to my avy gear. I wear it.

The reason I wear it is twofold: First and foremost, I upgraded from a backpack to an avy bag which now also contains my survival gear, and riding with my avy bag strapped to the sled defeats the purpose of an avy bag.

Second, experience has taught me that there's simply too much beyond my control to take the risk, however small, of getting separated from my sled and losing my gear. I normally ride in very remote country and any gear I've deemed necessary to sustain me in the event something goes terribly wrong is strapped to me. The only things on the sled, usually, are spare gas and tools. But that's me.

My advice is carefully weigh your risk profile and adapt your process to the conditions as you see fit, and have a practiced back-up plan in the event Mr Murphy shows up.

 

[03RMK800]

I have long had this image of a sled getting away from me and plunging down over the cliff with all my gear on it. Hence, the shovel, probe and key items (first aid, bivvy, space blankets, 2 - 3 ways to make fire, light, melting pan and snacks) are in the pack.

I got the image of the sled over the cliff when it happened to me moments before I spent the night on the mountain. Taught me to keep the essentials on my person.

 

[littleredstroker]

I am sure you have all seen the video of the guy on the skiderr that almost drives off a cliff when a cornice lets go... lets say he had his pack on his sled. He starts walking back down the hill which he came up and one of his buddies comes up to give him a ride and triggers an avy then gets burried. Good thing he has his shovel and probe in his pack which is now a mile down the other side of a cliff. There are so many variables and what ifs that come into play when talking about backpack vs tunnel bag..IMO if you dont want to ride with a backpack because its uncomfortable for you , that says that you are selfish and dont care about anyone but yourself.. what if I am burried and its "uncomfortable" for you to run up a half mile of nut deep snow to dig me out? Its a no brainer for me. I used to hate backpacks. After 2-3 rides I dont even notice it anymore.

Ive been riding for 4 years now. When i first started it was lack of skill/ confidence. I knew I wouldnt ever be in a siutuation where i would need any gear because i barley left the trail, and if i did it was just to get stuck 50 feet later. Second year I had a little more sand and was hill climbing and going after it just like everyone else. at this point nobody had any av gear . I ride with 8 friends and family and one of the guys we went with went to a class, got the gear and talked us all into getting the same. The ONLY reason i got the gear was for him. I had absoloutely no intention of ever going someplace where i would risk being in a AV, but i knew he might. we all had a pretty good idea how to use it and all but 2 people in our group had beacons.. good enough right? Hardly. We went to a class this last weekend put on by Tylers Backcountry Awarness and it was a major eye opener... My ignorance had me riding in avalanche terrain for the last 4 years withouth even knowing it. how we all got by is beyond me but its absoloutley ridiculous. one of the guys in our group is always strapped for cash, so we are going to pitch in and get him a beacon and also get a spare, the other (even after the class) says she refuses to wear a beacon because it costs to much, and refuses to wear a backpack. so the next time we go Im sure I will be the one who has to tell her shes not coming with us..its just so much easier to take a class, get the gear and be smart...

the real OH $#EET moment for me was last ride of last year, went side hilling across a hill that wasnt "that steep" with no issues, 30 min later came back around and the whole thing had let go... the path where everyone else had been traveling when i went up was completely burried. turns out 38*s IS THAT STEEP.


Nobody goes out on the hill for a day of snowmobiling with the intention of being killed...

The fact that 50% of people in a avalache are Dead before the snow settles should be enough to make people want to find out how to avoid it all together.

 

[Norona]

If a pack is too heavy for you, time to take up knitting! I can't believe in 2015 we are discussing or rather having to explain that avy and safety gear go on your person not your sled...you may think you look cool or are cool because you don't have the gear on your, but most of the smart people are looking at you and shaking their head!

 

[chaddspadd]

Essential survival items are in my backpack. My shovel is on my sled. I am more likely to be injured by the shovel or handle during a bad wreck than i am to lose my sled. This is my personal safety choice and it doesn't jeopardize the guys i ride with. Bottom line is safety is a personal choice that you have to be comfortable with.

 

[Chadx]

Essential survival items are in my backpack. My shovel is on my sled. I am more likely to be injured by the shovel or handle during a bad wreck than i am to lose my sled. This is my personal safety choice and it doesn't jeopardize the guys i ride with. Bottom line is safety is a personal choice that you have to be comfortable with.

Have to point out a few things mentioned above...

First, it DOES jeopardize the people you ride with. That is a fact and i don't think open for debate according to any experts or trainers.

Second, a shovel is an essential survival item; not for you but it is for those you ride with. Where is your probe and beacon? Are those any more or less important?

Not only do you have to be comfortable with your "choice", but so do the others in your group. If they are going to let you get away with it, great for you because it is not effecting you at all, it's effecting them So really it is their choice. It is also their choice (even if it is one single person in the entire riding group) to say they want you to gear up correctly and then you have another choice; respect them and gear up correctly, or refuse and try to force your way along on riding trips anyway, or don't ride with that group any longer.

Also, it would be interesting to hear where you got the statistic that a shovel properly stowed on your pack is more likely to injure you than for you to get separated from it and need it. Shovel injuries aren't something I've heard any numbers on so would be interesting to hear some examples.

This conversation really needs to be put to rest. Forget homemade "odds of this happening" and listen to the trainers and experts in avalanche awareness. Gear goes on your person.

If you want a convenient shovel for sled dig outs, put a second one on your sled, but all avy gear belongs on your person.

 

[chaddspadd]

I've had avy training. Obviously you know where your beacon goes don't ask stupid questions. A shovel in regards to safety is for for digging people out when they are buried. In that case it is easily accessible. Not likely i could get it off my back when I'm buried so no real loss not having it strapped on. Don't try to state facts when you're arguing feelings, that's what liberals do. Believe me i want to go home to my wife and kids as much as anybody and i make the best choices i can to do it.

 

[Chadx]

My comments and questions were not based on feelings or "what ifs". I asked how you got statistics for shovel injuries, and pointed out shovels are survival equipment, informed what most if not all avy instructors recommend, and said that a shovel is just as important to have on your person as a probe so you can perform a swift rescue even if you are separated from your sled. So my intention was to be fact based and not feelings based.

My probe and beacon question was a rhetorical question and my point was that a probe and beacon are important enough to have on your person and so is a shovel Since it is no less important. Serious question...Do you carry your probe in your pack or on your sled?

Every second counts when performing a rescue. In snow, even having to go 20 feet to get to your sled to retreive a shovel or roll your sled over to get to it is costing time. Also if one carries ones shovel somewhere besides your pack, one will be carrying a shovel while performing a beacon rescue. Better to have hands free so you can concentrate on the beacon rescue, then probing, and lastly get out the shovel to dig rather than having a shovel in your hand through all of that.

And, there are plenty of documented cases where multiple people and sleds were caught in a slide and one person could self rescue and was separated from there sled but went on to help rescue others that were caught in the same slide But buried deep. One in cooke city early this year. Another one last year here in montana. And many photos and examples in the training sessions I've attended.

So honest question about your last post...what did your avy instructor recommend, who was the trainer and what year was the training?

I'm not trying to beat you up on the subject. I'm trying to convey to you and others the reasons why it is best to wear safety equipment on your person and explain that it is not something I'm guessing at. It's an industry recommendation based on field experience of experts and their documented facts.

 

[elkhunt]

What if....

www.backcountryaccess.com has a lot of great research available part of which is:
“The most recent twelve years of U.S. avalanche statistics show that incidents involving multiple victims with transceivers are extremely rare."
Bruce Edgerly vice president and co-founder of Backcountry Access, Inc. (BCA),

I also think there are higher odds of being hurt by your own shovel than a multiple victim burial were you are on of the victims that self rescues, still has a backpack on and then finds your buddy.

If you want to be safe you should wear a life jacket at all times!

lifetime odds of 94,000 to one of dying in a snowmobile accident
lifetime odds of 89,000 to one of dying in a flood

 

[chaddspadd]

Tucker sno cat corp does our training at work every 5years, 2012 was my last class. The instructor recommended having a shovel at the easiest place to access it so i chose on my tunnel for that and my other concerns. Point taken about doing a beacon search while holding a shovel.

 

[YAMA S]

If a pack is too heavy for you, time to take up knitting! I can't believe in 2015 we are discussing or rather having to explain that avy and safety gear go on your person not your sled...you may think you look cool or are cool because you don't have the gear on your, but most of the smart people are looking at you and shaking their head!

My riding partner is my 10yr old step son! He rides with a beacon & a backpack EVERY ride. We double check our safety items all the time. He isn't allowed to ride unless the backpack/beacon is ON his person. If your too weak to wear your pack then maybe you should stay home with the GIRLS!