2017 MH Kit question

[thewwkayaker]

When I bought this kit (2017 MH LT) the guy had replaced the original Convex support with a fixed/standard support. He gave me the Convex support in case I wanted to swap it back in but said he didn't like it which is why he replaced it.

Anyone who had this setup recall what the difference was and should I bother to try it at some point? The track on this has the angled side paddles to aid with turning (I'd assume) in case that matters.

Also, he kept the TSS for his new kit so I just have the rigid connector. I haven't tried riding the bike across really really deep water bars (or creek crossings) on FSRs but would the TSS make a huge difference in crossing them? Some of these can be the length of a sled in depth and V shaped. In the past my buddy with his sled struggles to make it up and down these without rolling his sled.

Thanx

 

[eric82930]

The flex torque arm was supposed to allow the bike to tip easier like a tire. It didn't make much difference because the back arm was rigid. I've use both. It's an easy swap but probably not worth the effort.
The tss will smooth out the water bars if you hit them fast but not sure what you mean by the sleds rolling? Do the not hit them straight on? Just try it and see how it works before you spend a bunch of money on it.

 

[thewwkayaker]

The flex torque arm was supposed to allow the bike to tip easier like a tire. It didn't make much difference because the back arm was rigid. I've use both. It's an easy swap but probably not worth the effort.
The tss will smooth out the water bars if you hit them fast but not sure what you mean by the sleds rolling? Do the not hit them straight on? Just try it and see how it works before you spend a bunch of money on it.

Imagine a really deep V, I'm talking sled+ length in size, perhaps even 2x sled length and basically the bottom of the V is nearly 0 in width (one of these is from a place where there use to be a bridge but it collapsed). So when you slide down, I doubt you'd be hitting the throttle as the change up will be hard enough and throw you around without going even faster, then at the bottom you have to hit the throttle to get up however unless you are good there is a chance you will be off balance from the change up being so abrupt and harsh so your weight as you fly out of the V can be off enough to roll you as you crest. Make sense? If you mountain bike I'd say it's the same as doing a big roller coaster (we have a few in North Vancouver BC) which throw you unless you have your position perfect - it's the transition that gets you (and in biking you have to have your weight centered - too far forward and you'll eat the other side of the coaster, too far back and the bike throws you off). Also - not certain as I hit it differently on my ATV, early season they might hit it on an angle to avoid too much shock hitting it straight on.

Basically I understand the forces but wondering if the back end of the snowbike can deal with the change up or will it need to bend more than it can with just the fixed bar. Not sure how much flex a sled has either - I've just seen the result.

As the season goes it fills in with more and more snow which makes it easier but first few times are "fun".

As for the flex arm - why didn't they try it with two then (front and back)? Or would it flex too much? I'd think rigid would let you side hill easier since you'd edge the track in better (pure guess) so maybe that's why he didn't like it. Never explained, just said he didn't like it.

Thanx for the reply!

 

[eric82930]

You probably won't notice a difference going slow through the v with a tss. The only thing better would be a shorter track. The forks will probably bottom hard in the v and if the snow is soft the ski might go under and catch on the dirt\rocks. Best advice would be to cross the v at a 45 degree angle. It's easy on a bike.
The flex arm to me was just another marketing gimmick. And your right about less flex will help it hold on a steep side hill better. The newer kits have no flex but use narrower rail spacing that seems to give just enough flex without sacrificing side hills.

 

[eric82930]

The general theme to the tss is too pump up the pressure pretty high so it really doesn't move except on big fast hits. If you set it to soft it hurts performance.

 

[ravenous]

Imagine a really deep V, I'm talking sled+ length in size, perhaps even 2x sled length and basically the bottom of the V is nearly 0 in width (one of these is from a place where there use to be a bridge but it collapsed). So when you slide down, I doubt you'd be hitting the throttle as the change up will be hard enough and throw you around without going even faster, then at the bottom you have to hit the throttle to get up however unless you are good there is a chance you will be off balance from the change up being so abrupt and harsh so your weight as you fly out of the V can be off enough to roll you as you crest. Make sense? If you mountain bike I'd say it's the same as doing a big roller coaster (we have a few in North Vancouver BC) which throw you unless you have your position perfect - it's the transition that gets you (and in biking you have to have your weight centered - too far forward and you'll eat the other side of the coaster, too far back and the bike throws you off). Also - not certain as I hit it differently on my ATV, early season they might hit it on an angle to avoid too much shock hitting it straight on.

Basically I understand the forces but wondering if the back end of the snowbike can deal with the change up or will it need to bend more than it can with just the fixed bar. Not sure how much flex a sled has either - I've just seen the result.

As the season goes it fills in with more and more snow which makes it easier but first few times are "fun".

As for the flex arm - why didn't they try it with two then (front and back)? Or would it flex too much? I'd think rigid would let you side hill easier since you'd edge the track in better (pure guess) so maybe that's why he didn't like it. Never explained, just said he didn't like it.

Thanx for the reply!

Dont forget that E=MC squared and IxR=E. Theres no doubt that with a value of 0 at the base of the cross ditch you are going to need to add a minimum of 30% to your total preload(rear+6X8 over the total edifice, if you're totally proficient) Anything more than 60degrees negative slope will definitely be a problem. Try to aim for no more than 50degrees positive and you should be fine. Or maybe just gas it and fan the clutch.
Or you could just blast through the thing and you will probably be fine.

 

[aka Mr Floyd]

Lol to ravenous, but if I might add:

I think you are asking if the TSS would allow the kit to flex in the bottom of a steep gulley, so in theory do better? Answer there is: No difference you would ever notice. Been riding side by side with a kit that is exactly the same as mine for the last 4 years, his with TSS mine without, never have we noticed a difference in gulley bottom abilities (that's a new term I just created).

As for the convex bar idea, you have to remember in 2017 they were still trying to figure out how to get these kits to turn worth a damn. This was one of the things that was added, the idea that it would help the bike lean to turn. Yet with time they realized the reasons the early kits turned like sh!t is because they had too much front ski pressure, not because they couldn't lean. So the convex bar went in the dustbin.

Tips for that kit: shorten the strut, increase the front spring preload and decrease the rear spring preload to try to get some weight off the ski. If it still has the old timbersled ski, get a newer wider one. Make sure you have something to increase the springs in the forks, easiest is an airpro, but you didn't post what bike it is so hard to tell you whats best.

Have fun!

 

[thewwkayaker]

Lol to ravenous, but if I might add:

I think you are asking if the TSS would allow the kit to flex in the bottom of a steep gulley, so in theory do better? Answer there is: No difference you would ever notice. Been riding side by side with a kit that is exactly the same as mine for the last 4 years, his with TSS mine without, never have we noticed a difference in gulley bottom abilities (that's a new term I just created).

As for the convex bar idea, you have to remember in 2017 they were still trying to figure out how to get these kits to turn worth a damn. This was one of the things that was added, the idea that it would help the bike lean to turn. Yet with time they realized the reasons the early kits turned like sh!t is because they had too much front ski pressure, not because they couldn't lean. So the convex bar went in the dustbin.

Tips for that kit: shorten the strut, increase the front spring preload and decrease the rear spring preload to try to get some weight off the ski. If it still has the old timbersled ski, get a newer wider one. Make sure you have something to increase the springs in the forks, easiest is an airpro, but you didn't post what bike it is so hard to tell you whats best.

Have fun!

Gulley - OK got it. Was just wondering

Convex bar - makes sense. My bar is as short as can be made (all the way in) but that was pretty much what the fit kit asked for. I could maybe cut the two parts down to give the ability to shorten it. Now I guess the question is - given the fit kit is new, was it updated with better setup (i.e. length they suggest you set the strut) or is it the same as it was back when the kit was made?

Tips: I'll do the preload thing. I'd assume it's the old ski, but before I go crazy - I'm a beginner so I'll play with this ski as is before trying to upgrade. My bike is a 2014 yz450f. Again I'll play with it first before getting something for the fork but I've read about the airpro which seems the simplest option to start with.

Thanx for the info!

 

[suva]

Doing something to stiffen your forks should be your #1 priority. It seems counterintuitive but it will allow you to push more weight back onto the track.

I didn't like the convex bar either, I thought it made side to side lean feel inconsistent.

I liked the tss on my mountain horse for the most part, you should be able to find a used one for not too much $$$. I remember on more than one occasion where I made it through a hole where my buddy with the same setup minus tss would end up stuffing the ski and getting stuck, the downside is the tss didn't float on top of the snow or pop off jumps quite as well.

 

[M5-]

I don't recall reading what your weight is but to me that influences how stiff your forks need to be, that and your riding style.. If you are a lighter guy, say sub 180, I wouldn't go crazy stiffening the forks until you ride it. If you don't do huge drops or have a need to ride whooped up trails then stock forks actually work pretty well. Think of it in terms of extremes, if you replaced the fork tubes with solid steel pipes would that be better? No. Your suspension needs to be able to work look no further than the MTN Top kit, new design pushing the use of stock fork springs. I personally don't like stiff forks, even when I was riding TS I used stock forks.

Bottom line, you need to experiment before you drop a whole bunch of $$ on hard parts because speaking from experience, this won't be your last and best kit.

M5

 

[thewwkayaker]

I don't recall reading what your weight is but to me that influences how stiff your forks need to be, that and your riding style.. If you are a lighter guy, say sub 180, I wouldn't go crazy stiffening the forks until you ride it. If you don't do huge drops or have a need to ride whooped up trails then stock forks actually work pretty well. Think of it in terms of extremes, if you replaced the fork tubes with solid steel pipes would that be better? No. Your suspension needs to be able to work look no further than the MTN Top kit, new design pushing the use of stock fork springs. I personally don't like stiff forks, even when I was riding TS I used stock forks.

Bottom line, you need to experiment before you drop a whole bunch of $$ on hard parts because speaking from experience, this won't be your last and best kit.

M5

I'm 180. My thought (like you stated M5) was to play around first and learn what the issues are before I start buying stuff. I know I'll get stuck going up whooped up trails - hard to avoid since sleds go everywhere they can, but even so I need to learn how the bikes response and then I can surmise what might help (or I can ask another rider in my area their thoughts as well). Thanx for the reply.

 

[needpowder]

I had the same kit only mine was a 16 137”. Maybe on flat ground it might’ve worked OK without stiffer forks, but going downhill it would have dove like crazy. Air pro is cheap. Or buy two Schrader valves and stick those on your forks and pump them up individually or one at a time doesn’t really matter.

 

[thewwkayaker]

I had the same kit only mine was a 16 137”. Maybe on flat ground it might’ve worked OK without stiffer forks, but going downhill it would have dove like crazy. Air pro is cheap. Or buy two Schrader valves and stick those on your forks and pump them up individually or one at a time doesn’t really matter.

How would you install a simple Schrader valve in the fork? I assume the hole you use on the forks is not threaded the same as a Schrader value. Is there an adapter? I like the idea though - simple.

 

[dooman92]

I 've done schraders on both yammi and ktm. Had to drill and tap both times as schrader fittings not that small that I found. The schrader used in some air shocks works and I believe I used one from erik's military with 1/16 pipe to screw into fork. It is tight finding a spot on top to drill and tap and insert fitting, need clearance to turn nut portion in but, can be done. might make more sense looking at photo of fitting. eriksmilitarysurplus.com p/n 599756. I think got one from arizonadesertshocks.com also..

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

How would you install a simple Schrader valve in the fork? I assume the hole you use on the forks is not threaded the same as a Schrader value. Is there an adapter? I like the idea though - simple.

There’s a bunch of schrader / adapters on ebay.

What forks do you have?

 

[thewwkayaker]

There’s a bunch of schrader / adapters on ebay.

What forks do you have?

I have a yz450f so I'm assuming they are KYB. It has an air bleed on top I could use.

I saw on another thread (older) someone added a bleed line between the forks and a T with a schrader valve. I think the OP said it cost about $35CAD for the entire setup (2 elbows, lines, 1, valve).

Thinking its pretty straight forward. Line from each fork to a tee with a schrader valve. Simple air line tube and fitting rated to 150 psi which is more than adequate. Ordered the fittings for the fork from Ackland Grainger. Should have them later this week and can confirm fit then.

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/en/product/MALE-ELBOW,45-DEG,4MM,TUBEXR(PT)/p/WWG36X263
View attachment 334029

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

 

[needpowder]

I have a yz450f so I'm assuming they are KYB. It has an air bleed on top I could use.

I saw on another thread (older) someone added a bleed line between the forks and a T with a schrader valve. I think the OP said it cost about $35CAD for the entire setup (2 elbows, lines, 1, valve).

I bought mine from a company in Canada but cannot remember the name. I will try to look when I have more time. I’m sure you could do it a lot cheaper yourself but I didn’t want the hassle. My air Pro always leaked and I got tired of having to pump it up every day. I have posted about them on the past on this forum and there was a link, but the search feature has changed in is confusing me.

 

[needpowder]

I bought mine from a company in Canada but cannot remember the name. I will try to look when I have more time. I’m sure you could do it a lot cheaper yourself but I didn’t want the hassle. My air Pro always leaked and I got tired of having to pump it up every day. I have posted about them on the past on this forum and there was a link, but the search feature has changed in is confusing me.

Had a little more time to search, but cannot find any links that still work. There are some other threads that explained the DIY method very well.

 

[thewwkayaker]

Had a little more time to search, but cannot find any links that still work. There are some other threads that explained the DIY method very well.

The quote I added earlier (above) came from someone on this site who did just that. They never posted their experience though. I was wondering if the elbows they bought fit (threaded in easily) to the air bleeds in the fork or if they did something different. For now I'll just use my bike as is and learn what it needs but this option looked interesting - I like DIY stuff. It's also been great reading various threads here to understand issues and various solutions. Really should have a DIY thread pinned for those who enjoy solving things - there are some great ideas on the board that people have put into practice. Anyway thanx again to everyone for their ideas and solutions!

 

[needpowder]

You will definitely want something to stiffen up your forks. Air pro is probably the cheapest and easiest. Changing springs to the .58 or something like that is cheap, but then you have to change the springs. Have fun out there and let us know what works for you.