Then they wouldn't be the skier group I'm referring to. I'm talking about the hut users and other skiers that aren't using sleds. That user group does not contribute funds to the operations.
Vail Pass fee increase proposal
- Thread starter blurredelevens
- Start date
Then they wouldn't be the skier group I'm referring to. I'm talking about the hut users and other skiers that aren't using sleds. That user group does not contribute funds to the operations.
H
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vail-Pass-Winter-Recreation-Area/201153529897569?fref=nf
Imagine that! How convenient, There plow broke down! Well I guess they are just going to force us to pay them more or they just won't plow parking anymore.
Imagine that! How convenient, There plow broke down! Well I guess they are just going to force us to pay them more or they just won't plow parking anymore.
You appear to have misunderstood my question- it was addressing motorized usage in the hybrid areas, not motorized usage in ski only areas.
There are tons of places where groomed routes are the only motorized access through an area outside of vail pass. Just take a quick look at the White River NF Winter Travel Docs. On the WRNF groomed routes is the norm rather than an exception
and only 1/3 of VP visitation is non-motorized
There are tons of places where groomed routes are the only motorized access through an area outside of vail pass. Just take a quick look at the White River NF Winter Travel Docs. On the WRNF groomed routes is the norm rather than an exception
and only 1/3 of VP visitation is non-motorized
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Yep... we went up on sunday, no plowing, and no grooming. But they sure were there stealing our money though. F*** the forest circus.
R
This was taken last Friday at 1:30pm. 8" new that day.
This kind of stuff will only help get areas closed down.
This kind of stuff will only help get areas closed down.
This was taken last Friday at 1:30pm. 8" new that day.
This kind of stuff will only help get areas closed down.
They already steal any areas they can from us, Summit county has lost a majority of it's riding in the last couple years... that's just someone taking it back 15" at a time.
But all the damage that sled did to the earth right there is disturbing though... really unfortunate.
C
The problem with your support of current closures is that most snowmobillers find the current set of rules to be way over the top. As previously mentioned, millions of acres have already been illegally closed. The Fed has NO right to make rules on states land, but they do. Much of it is premised on saving the lands, which we all know is a cruel joke, just LOOK at Colorado's forests today. They look like crap, good job you greenie clowns.
So there is a TON of bad blood out there stemming from closures that occurred 10-20 years ago. YOU might like the current rules, most of us do not.
I love the lie that is told about crossing "the line". You claim this helps get more lands closed. You are wrong and, I side with civil disobedience. They close many of these areas because of lack of use. Start showing USE again and petition for re-opening, because we do use it. Enforcement becomes a problem for the forest circus too. The more rules, the more closures, the more violators the bigger the pain in their butt.
The facts are... skiers can go anywhere. Closures ONLY apply to motorized users. We lose more and more land every year, another 35,000 acres we used to ride down by Silverton, now going Wilderness. So tell me who exactly is not trying for more closures? Oh yeah, the rule makers, the forest circus supported by the greenies, and guys like YOU who like lots of rules for everybody else.
You can tell us you are a sledder all you want, that isn't what I read in your posts. You are a sledder so you can ski. You think you have a right to a special closed area. Guess what, me too, I want it all too.
We ride what we want to ride, god help the ranger that tries to throw us off of public lands, regardless of which illegally placed designation they want to map it into.
You are on the wrong side of this, period.
C
This was taken last Friday at 1:30pm. 8" new that day.
This kind of stuff will only help get areas closed down.
That is just comical. Explain to me exactly how this gets more land closed. That is the party line I understand but explain to me how it really has an effect.
Somebody broke the rule so lets close more land so they will break more rules? Clearly the rules are un-enforceable already. You are telling me this somehow creates further closures? What is the point of un-enforceable closures? That is just a picture of a citizen enjoying public lands as should be his/her constitutional right.
The lines in the snow are not going to work. Time for a re-think. While re-thinking the current failed plan to control the citizenry, consider that sledders are not going away. Might as well open it back up.
I understand that we are a long way from my vision. I soundly reject yours however. I spent a decade of my life fighting with the clubs, playing by the rules. The game is fixed dude, and they are lying to you.
Their groomer went down. The groomer isn't used to plow the parking area, the FS has a small truck (1 ton) with a plow up there. But what bothers me is that they claim some of the use fees go to plowing. In their FB page they clearly state that they wait on CDOT to come in and plow. As others have stated, it's too late by the time CDOT has caught up on I-70 and gets to the parking area. Too many trucks are already there. They need to plow by 8am at the latest. But...let's throw more money at it and see what happens. Total BS approach.
R
BCIL - has nothing at all to do with environmental impact. Surely you know where I stand on that.
People here are mad (rightfully) that the VP lot does not get plowed effectively - what are we paying for again?
I'm mad that I'm not getting what *I* am paying for - "hybrid use" areas. I personally don't care if the lot is plowed. I had to chain up on Monday, hell, I pulled the FS plow truck (the borrowed one) out after it got stuck.
How do sleds riding in closed areas - RIGHT PAST THE FORNICATING SIGN - contribute to more areas getting closed?
Really? Do I REALLY have to explain this?
Ok. I will. It is pretty simple. The anti-ohv people tolerate us. Yeah, us, you knuckleheads, I'm one of you. Many anti-ohv people will do their thing alongside us - or the smart ones will go to the places where OHVs are not permitted. Not all are smart in either camp, I've found.
When a snowmobiler rides RIGHT PAST THE SIGN, in plain view of other users - motorized and otherwise - people will complain. People will write letters. People will pay more attention.
Example - THIS FREAKING THREAD. Snowmobiles are riding in places they should not - again, I get it, the rules are bad - but they're the CURRENT RULES. Breaking the rules WILL NOT HELP get feces reopened.
Rather than complain to the FS, I came to "the source." Granted, a lot of sledders don't use the internet, but SW is probably a damned good place to start. I came here to rattle the cage and stir the pot - right or wrong, the rules at VP and BP are clear and specific. Disobeying them does not help - and not just because I think it is inconsiderate, but for OUR SPORT. Breaking the rules in the most visible fashion is stupid.
Dunno how to use fewer or smaller words.
People here are mad (rightfully) that the VP lot does not get plowed effectively - what are we paying for again?
I'm mad that I'm not getting what *I* am paying for - "hybrid use" areas. I personally don't care if the lot is plowed. I had to chain up on Monday, hell, I pulled the FS plow truck (the borrowed one) out after it got stuck.
How do sleds riding in closed areas - RIGHT PAST THE FORNICATING SIGN - contribute to more areas getting closed?
Really? Do I REALLY have to explain this?
Ok. I will. It is pretty simple. The anti-ohv people tolerate us. Yeah, us, you knuckleheads, I'm one of you. Many anti-ohv people will do their thing alongside us - or the smart ones will go to the places where OHVs are not permitted. Not all are smart in either camp, I've found.
When a snowmobiler rides RIGHT PAST THE SIGN, in plain view of other users - motorized and otherwise - people will complain. People will write letters. People will pay more attention.
Example - THIS FREAKING THREAD. Snowmobiles are riding in places they should not - again, I get it, the rules are bad - but they're the CURRENT RULES. Breaking the rules WILL NOT HELP get feces reopened.
Rather than complain to the FS, I came to "the source." Granted, a lot of sledders don't use the internet, but SW is probably a damned good place to start. I came here to rattle the cage and stir the pot - right or wrong, the rules at VP and BP are clear and specific. Disobeying them does not help - and not just because I think it is inconsiderate, but for OUR SPORT. Breaking the rules in the most visible fashion is stupid.
Dunno how to use fewer or smaller words.
R
I ran out of fuel and fried a coil today riding untouched deep snow after skiing. Had a darned good time doing it.
I do think I have a right to use the product that the FS/VPWRA is selling, as they sell it. The non-motorized users have a right to be ticked off when a sled rides on their skintracks (happened last week, guy on sled was oblivious, but at least he had two pairs of jeans on), and I have a right to be ticked off when sleds trench the crap out of the terrain set aside for skiing.
I'm ALSO ticked off that a ton of land has been closed to sleds - this would be FAR less of a problem if there were more space for the sleds to go, plain and simple, and I suspect that the people who are riding the good skiing terrain would HAPPILY go somewhere else, if they could/if there were more places open to them.
There are not more places to go. That does suck. No two ways about it.
No two ways about it on the other side of the coin - the current rules are in place.
Dunno. I certainly don't complain about sled tracks at the other places I ski. I'm paying my $ like the rest of you. The REASON I go there is because of the hybrid access stuff. Yeah, skiers can go anywhere, but sledders can't, and I do both - ? Now I have to choose? C'mon.
ahhhh dunno why I bother.
C
Unfortunately, the way the backcountry skiers and greenie support system works, makes the entire thing adversarial. I have tried working with them, compromise with them only to see a story in the local paper the next week where they brag in print how they intend to run the sleds off.
Now I know there are lots of decent skier types. I used to ski, went to state competition back in HS for the slalom event. The problem is the greenies are really good at making this bandwagon that looks like the right course. They do this by lying cheating and stealing. Unfortunately, ANY association with this type of behavior lumps you into the adversary catagory in my book. That includes supporting ANY closures to sleds ANYWHERE. We do not close millions of acres to skier access. Until the balance comes back towards sanity, we are going to have a problem.
Just a quick story to reveal why I purposely trench out skier areas when they piss me off... I was riding on Molas Pass where they run several cat tours. They have a permitted area, a huge one. Adjacent to it is a nice hillside with trees that is open to motorized use. So I come ripping up through the trees, having a great time. When I break out on top there is a cat full of skiers unloading. OK.... then I start getting rude gestures from them like I am in the wrong place??? The leader of the group and I had a discussion... I tracked the sh1t out of that area, they weren't coming back to that area for a second run. What a bunch of crap though, you skiers act like it is yours and only yours.
Until you can get your cronies under control, you WILL be dealing with angry sledders. Same goes for the forest circus. They tried to confront us last season, claimed I was in a closed area, which I wasn't. We chased them off, I think they started to realize we were not going to be bullied.
When I was active with CSA and the local club I started in my area, I played by the rules, tried to work it out. You mistakenly assume it is the sledders causing the problem. I have a different perspective on it. We USED to leave well enough alone. Since I was accused of going as far as inviting pro riders to the area to disrupt skier activities (NO SH!T) I have NO time for skiers anymore. You want to play that way fine, but you greedy skiers MADE these rules. Grow up and accept the consequences. There is a large quiet group that you have made your adversary.
If you want it to change, you need to reach out to your fellow skiers, THAT is where the problem lies, not with sledders.
Lucky for me, I do not need to deal with VP. I hope you guys can figure it out.
Now I know there are lots of decent skier types. I used to ski, went to state competition back in HS for the slalom event. The problem is the greenies are really good at making this bandwagon that looks like the right course. They do this by lying cheating and stealing. Unfortunately, ANY association with this type of behavior lumps you into the adversary catagory in my book. That includes supporting ANY closures to sleds ANYWHERE. We do not close millions of acres to skier access. Until the balance comes back towards sanity, we are going to have a problem.
Just a quick story to reveal why I purposely trench out skier areas when they piss me off... I was riding on Molas Pass where they run several cat tours. They have a permitted area, a huge one. Adjacent to it is a nice hillside with trees that is open to motorized use. So I come ripping up through the trees, having a great time. When I break out on top there is a cat full of skiers unloading. OK.... then I start getting rude gestures from them like I am in the wrong place??? The leader of the group and I had a discussion... I tracked the sh1t out of that area, they weren't coming back to that area for a second run. What a bunch of crap though, you skiers act like it is yours and only yours.
Until you can get your cronies under control, you WILL be dealing with angry sledders. Same goes for the forest circus. They tried to confront us last season, claimed I was in a closed area, which I wasn't. We chased them off, I think they started to realize we were not going to be bullied.
When I was active with CSA and the local club I started in my area, I played by the rules, tried to work it out. You mistakenly assume it is the sledders causing the problem. I have a different perspective on it. We USED to leave well enough alone. Since I was accused of going as far as inviting pro riders to the area to disrupt skier activities (NO SH!T) I have NO time for skiers anymore. You want to play that way fine, but you greedy skiers MADE these rules. Grow up and accept the consequences. There is a large quiet group that you have made your adversary.
If you want it to change, you need to reach out to your fellow skiers, THAT is where the problem lies, not with sledders.
Lucky for me, I do not need to deal with VP. I hope you guys can figure it out.
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R
I have trouble wrapping my head around your logic. I *do* appreciate discussion, though - thanks. Seriously - not being sarcastic.
From my angle, we've got 10% (roughly) of the area at VP that is sectioned off for "us," and at Buff Pass, probably 5% of the available terrain. Maybe it is 15 and 10%, not sure on numbers - but WELL under half of the terrain is put aside for skiing. The majority of the legal riding in those areas are open to both sleds and skis.
A considerably smaller area is closed to sleds off established trails.
*MOST* of the skiers using the "hybrid access" areas are part of the motorized groups. Very few human powered skiers - I rarely see people skinning back there for laps. Most of us are on snowmobiles, or the catop guests.
Forgetting the guests of the catop - they're tourists, mostly - the catop and sled-skiers are most certainly not in favor of outright closures. The catop (Vail Powder Guides/Steamboat Powdercats) _need_ OHV access for their business to run.
I'm not sure how the rules got put in place, but we've got them. The vast majority of "us" take NO issue with sleds - me in particular, I like them, duh! But when a sledder goes OUT OF HIS WAY to negatively impact _my_ weekend, that's crap.
Now, up until this point, I'd not really thought it was intentional - for the most part, I figured it was ignorance - they simply did not know. That's OK, it'll snow again, now you know, don't do it.
Intentionally making other people's experience worse is really not ok, especially when the people who you're (any "you") impacting had nothing to do with the closure - like me. I just want the rules followed. If it is intentional - if it is personal - that's even worse.
I really don't see how antagonizing the "other" group has _any_ good outcome, particularly when the majority of people out there are not PRO-OHV. The majority may not be anti-OHV, but they're certainly not in favor of OHV use (majority being "the population").
I guess I'm not seeing how "the skiers" are the problem, IF we're talking about motorized-access skiers. BC skiers/non-motorized user groups, sure - many are polarized, they have the "if it is not my definition of fun, it is not fun" attitude.
Sled skiers are right in between. We have sleds, we buy registrations, but we also ski - and places like Vail, we want to use the terrain made available to us.
I can't think of a similar parallel with sleds, but if there were a group of users who could ruin a chunk of terrain in minutes for the sleds (recreational groomers? heh), and there were areas where the recreational groomers were NOT permitted, I'd think the sledders would be right there trying to keep that enforced.
I don't go out of my way to make other people's experiences worse. That's not how good things get done.
From my angle, we've got 10% (roughly) of the area at VP that is sectioned off for "us," and at Buff Pass, probably 5% of the available terrain. Maybe it is 15 and 10%, not sure on numbers - but WELL under half of the terrain is put aside for skiing. The majority of the legal riding in those areas are open to both sleds and skis.
A considerably smaller area is closed to sleds off established trails.
*MOST* of the skiers using the "hybrid access" areas are part of the motorized groups. Very few human powered skiers - I rarely see people skinning back there for laps. Most of us are on snowmobiles, or the catop guests.
Forgetting the guests of the catop - they're tourists, mostly - the catop and sled-skiers are most certainly not in favor of outright closures. The catop (Vail Powder Guides/Steamboat Powdercats) _need_ OHV access for their business to run.
I'm not sure how the rules got put in place, but we've got them. The vast majority of "us" take NO issue with sleds - me in particular, I like them, duh! But when a sledder goes OUT OF HIS WAY to negatively impact _my_ weekend, that's crap.
Now, up until this point, I'd not really thought it was intentional - for the most part, I figured it was ignorance - they simply did not know. That's OK, it'll snow again, now you know, don't do it.
Intentionally making other people's experience worse is really not ok, especially when the people who you're (any "you") impacting had nothing to do with the closure - like me. I just want the rules followed. If it is intentional - if it is personal - that's even worse.
I really don't see how antagonizing the "other" group has _any_ good outcome, particularly when the majority of people out there are not PRO-OHV. The majority may not be anti-OHV, but they're certainly not in favor of OHV use (majority being "the population").
I guess I'm not seeing how "the skiers" are the problem, IF we're talking about motorized-access skiers. BC skiers/non-motorized user groups, sure - many are polarized, they have the "if it is not my definition of fun, it is not fun" attitude.
Sled skiers are right in between. We have sleds, we buy registrations, but we also ski - and places like Vail, we want to use the terrain made available to us.
I can't think of a similar parallel with sleds, but if there were a group of users who could ruin a chunk of terrain in minutes for the sleds (recreational groomers? heh), and there were areas where the recreational groomers were NOT permitted, I'd think the sledders would be right there trying to keep that enforced.
I don't go out of my way to make other people's experiences worse. That's not how good things get done.
C
Wrap your head around this...
Skier groups have been actively, successfully, stealing land use rights from sledders for DECADES. By supporting BS rules, you are actively engaged in making my experience worse.
There has been NO loss of use to skiers. Your support of the "rules in place" is just another example of selfishness from the crowd that defines the term. Now if you lose the "right" to sled ski that area because there is clearly conflict (another BS reason for more rules). That would make your experience worse.
The skiers have been in pursuit of a non motorized forest for a long long time. It is a stated goal of many groups. Be very careful of where your alliances fall, your sled skiing is reviled by most of the same groups looking to further limit your rights to sue PUBLIC lands.
The skier groups and forest circus have been actively engaged in ruining my forest experience for almost 15 years now. You expect me to respect their rules aimed at limiting my freedoms? No, I am angry about it. Occasionally it comes out sideways and someone elses day is ruined. When that happens, think back on how sledders rights have been trampled over the years, often using our own money against us. Think about how that might make you feel, and how you might react.
Working together toward a solution sounds great. I m here to tell you, from a vast amount of personal experience... that program is a lie. It is a one way street with the skiers and until that changes, it is the skiers instigating the problems, entitled self righteous hippy freaks in most cases. I am done being co-operative and getting screwed. Best of luck to you though!
R
Gotit - thanks for taking the time! I can see that perspective. I guess, for me, not having been around snowmobiling long enough to be impacted by closures - since I've been riding, the only closure that has impacted *me* is Urad (I know there have been others), and that was a total sneak attack. Hrmph.
I think I'd still opt to obey the rules in place, though - if it really is "skier groups" vs snowmobilers, making them mad by breaking the rules just can't help; I guess I'd just not add fuel to the fire; I don't see how that _helps_.
Thanks again, CO Powder.
I think I'd still opt to obey the rules in place, though - if it really is "skier groups" vs snowmobilers, making them mad by breaking the rules just can't help; I guess I'd just not add fuel to the fire; I don't see how that _helps_.
Thanks again, CO Powder.
C
You still completely missed the point. "Breaking the Rules" ONLY applies to sleds. There are no rules for the skiers, none... If you can not see a major flaw in that kind of arrangement, well, good luck. If you expect people used to a certain level of personal freedom and the requisite responsibility, to respect this type of public policy management, you would have to be crazy.
The real thorn in my side are the lies they tell. Lies about environmental damage, wildlife disruption, pollution and on and on. They do this unabashedly and steal our rights to recreate as we see fit.
I know the skier group is full of well meaning folks, unaware of most of the tactics their leaders use to steal from others. Just as you would like to see sledders more responsible, I would like skiers to SERIOUSLY look at what they may be supporting. How would they feel if ALL the rules were for them, ALL of the closures kept them out and sleds could go anywhere. I suspect they wouldn't like that much. Everyone is so selfish anymore that they never think of how they impact others... and this from the supposedly socially enlightened crowd. Rudest bunch on the planet, save maybe the Japanese...
The real thorn in my side are the lies they tell. Lies about environmental damage, wildlife disruption, pollution and on and on. They do this unabashedly and steal our rights to recreate as we see fit.
I know the skier group is full of well meaning folks, unaware of most of the tactics their leaders use to steal from others. Just as you would like to see sledders more responsible, I would like skiers to SERIOUSLY look at what they may be supporting. How would they feel if ALL the rules were for them, ALL of the closures kept them out and sleds could go anywhere. I suspect they wouldn't like that much. Everyone is so selfish anymore that they never think of how they impact others... and this from the supposedly socially enlightened crowd. Rudest bunch on the planet, save maybe the Japanese...
R
I don't think there NEED to be rules for skiers - skiers have virtually no impact on other users. Not talking environmental impact.
Shrine Pass Road _used_ to be motorized only, I think. I swear it was. That made sense - there's a parallel skintrack. That seems to have gone away, which is a shame.
Thing is, though, skiers - or snowshoers, or sledders, or hikers, or birdwatchers or any other person who goes out and wanders aimlessly in the forest has no negative impact on snowmobilers. OK, you might have to slow down a little bit to get around them, but realistically speaking, there are not THAT many - and a big day skinning/human powered will be 5 miles for a lot of people. We're normally 5 miles from the truck before it gets even remotely interesting.
Is the point that if WE have to follow rules, THEY DO TOO?
BUT MOOOOMMMMM TEDDY DOES NOT HAVE TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH!!!!!
Is that the point I missed?
It is crazy to think that a snowmobiler, dirt biker, mountain biker, car racer should follow the same set of rules and guidelines as the person walking their dog.
Snowmobiles are loud - even the stock ones - they dramatically change the user experience for the hikers/XC skiers, they're DIFFERENT. It is unreasonable for the anti-motor people to say we can't use our land, but it is equally unreasonable for us to tell them to eff-off and deal with it.
There are "rights," then there's also "courtesy." I don't blare my music in parking lots out of courtesy for others who might not want to hear it. I COMPLETELY understand why someone out for a snowshoe does not like it when a snowmobile passes by. Naturally, I'd be inclined to give them tips on places to go that snowmobiles are not allowed, but that's just me. I don't ski outside of the hybrid use area - save MGR occasionally - out of courtesy. Shrine bowl is short, but there's some fun stuff on the south end of wingle ridge. That's sled-territory in my world. I _COULD_ ski there, I have on weekdays when it is empty, but by and large, I leave it/stay out of the way.
So, not sure what point I missed. You said:
"Everyone is so selfish anymore that they never think of how they impact others..."
I largely agree with you, but that does not justify ignoring how YOU impact others.
I do agree that the non-motor people would not like it if the tables were turned & we had free reign, they had to pick and choose. Totally agree.
That's never going to happen - sleds and motorized things are _always_ going to have more restrictions than feet - constitutional rights or not. There SHOULD be more rules on mechanized recreation than feet (now I am talking a bit about environmental impact).
Two people. Both citizens, both taxpayers.
One has Limmers and a Canon.
The other has Alpinestars and a KX500AF.
There should be NO rules imposed on either one? None? Really?
It is the hiker's "right" to go enjoy the forest as he sees fit.
It is the dirtbikers "right" to go enjoy the forest as she sees fit.
However, the dirtbiker will be mad at the hiker for being in the way, the hiker will be mad that the 60hp rototiller is making ruts and dust and noise.
Whose rights are more important? That's what it is kinda boiling down to, right? I think it is.
I say their rights are equal, and there should be equal opportunity for both people to recreate.
That's not really what's happening....why is that?
Could it be that the OHV segment, as a group, does a darned fine job of looking like a bunch of ignorant, redneck hicks? I mean, since we're blanketing groups of people.
The "Japanese" statement is crap.
Dunno, agree to disagree, I guess. I don't know what the answer is. I do think that the OHV community - not just sleds, dirtbikes, too - needs to lose this "I's AN AMERRRICUN!!!!! IT'S MAH RIGHT!" argument, because it clearly does not work. The rude people come up with things that lawmakers and legislators see as valid, and we know the rest. IMHO, sled groups need to CONTRIBUTE (and the clubs do - aware of that), collaborate, etc.
asdasdasd wearing out a keyboard, and for what?
FWIW - just in case you people think I'm some twiggy hippie, I'm not; I've been racing cars for 20 years, mountain bikes for 25, was way into the dirt bike/enduro thing for 10, used to be REALLY into the offroad thing, now snowmobiles.
Skiing is pretty much the ONLY thing I have in common with the "twig fairies." Well, that and tofu.
Shrine Pass Road _used_ to be motorized only, I think. I swear it was. That made sense - there's a parallel skintrack. That seems to have gone away, which is a shame.
Thing is, though, skiers - or snowshoers, or sledders, or hikers, or birdwatchers or any other person who goes out and wanders aimlessly in the forest has no negative impact on snowmobilers. OK, you might have to slow down a little bit to get around them, but realistically speaking, there are not THAT many - and a big day skinning/human powered will be 5 miles for a lot of people. We're normally 5 miles from the truck before it gets even remotely interesting.
Is the point that if WE have to follow rules, THEY DO TOO?
BUT MOOOOMMMMM TEDDY DOES NOT HAVE TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH!!!!!
Is that the point I missed?
It is crazy to think that a snowmobiler, dirt biker, mountain biker, car racer should follow the same set of rules and guidelines as the person walking their dog.
Snowmobiles are loud - even the stock ones - they dramatically change the user experience for the hikers/XC skiers, they're DIFFERENT. It is unreasonable for the anti-motor people to say we can't use our land, but it is equally unreasonable for us to tell them to eff-off and deal with it.
There are "rights," then there's also "courtesy." I don't blare my music in parking lots out of courtesy for others who might not want to hear it. I COMPLETELY understand why someone out for a snowshoe does not like it when a snowmobile passes by. Naturally, I'd be inclined to give them tips on places to go that snowmobiles are not allowed, but that's just me. I don't ski outside of the hybrid use area - save MGR occasionally - out of courtesy. Shrine bowl is short, but there's some fun stuff on the south end of wingle ridge. That's sled-territory in my world. I _COULD_ ski there, I have on weekdays when it is empty, but by and large, I leave it/stay out of the way.
So, not sure what point I missed. You said:
"Everyone is so selfish anymore that they never think of how they impact others..."
I largely agree with you, but that does not justify ignoring how YOU impact others.
I do agree that the non-motor people would not like it if the tables were turned & we had free reign, they had to pick and choose. Totally agree.
That's never going to happen - sleds and motorized things are _always_ going to have more restrictions than feet - constitutional rights or not. There SHOULD be more rules on mechanized recreation than feet (now I am talking a bit about environmental impact).
Two people. Both citizens, both taxpayers.
One has Limmers and a Canon.
The other has Alpinestars and a KX500AF.
There should be NO rules imposed on either one? None? Really?
It is the hiker's "right" to go enjoy the forest as he sees fit.
It is the dirtbikers "right" to go enjoy the forest as she sees fit.
However, the dirtbiker will be mad at the hiker for being in the way, the hiker will be mad that the 60hp rototiller is making ruts and dust and noise.
Whose rights are more important? That's what it is kinda boiling down to, right? I think it is.
I say their rights are equal, and there should be equal opportunity for both people to recreate.
That's not really what's happening....why is that?
Could it be that the OHV segment, as a group, does a darned fine job of looking like a bunch of ignorant, redneck hicks? I mean, since we're blanketing groups of people.
The "Japanese" statement is crap.
Dunno, agree to disagree, I guess. I don't know what the answer is. I do think that the OHV community - not just sleds, dirtbikes, too - needs to lose this "I's AN AMERRRICUN!!!!! IT'S MAH RIGHT!" argument, because it clearly does not work. The rude people come up with things that lawmakers and legislators see as valid, and we know the rest. IMHO, sled groups need to CONTRIBUTE (and the clubs do - aware of that), collaborate, etc.
asdasdasd wearing out a keyboard, and for what?
FWIW - just in case you people think I'm some twiggy hippie, I'm not; I've been racing cars for 20 years, mountain bikes for 25, was way into the dirt bike/enduro thing for 10, used to be REALLY into the offroad thing, now snowmobiles.
Skiing is pretty much the ONLY thing I have in common with the "twig fairies." Well, that and tofu.
You say that both have equal rights, you are wrong. Skiers have an additional 3.5 million acres to use if they want to never see or hear a sled. I will NEVER approve of any more wilderness, ever.
R
Re-read it. That's not what I said.
C
Easy to justify.... I let them make the rules.
The rule is to have zero respect for your fellow recreationalist.
Closing lands based on lies.
So I am not supposed to react to people wanting to unreasonably limit my rights? I should be OK with it because you are? Yes, we absolutely disagree.
I never figured you were a liberal, just someone who has not had cause to really look into all of the ramifications of your position supporting the USFS supposedly "helping" more on VP.
I talk to people all the time who have not quite yet had their fill. Then when it is their honey hole that gets closed, they wish they had taken a different position.
The problem here is that if you give an inch they take a mile. How else do you explain a landmass the size of California being closed to motorized users in this country? It is bad and getting worse, you'll see.
