Suspension Design Discussion Kind Of

[M5-]

In the last few weeks I have had the chance to ride a few different 2020 Yeti 129 Free Rides in a bunch of different conditions, everything from trail to pow to crappy hard crust. Obviously during those rides I've been on my 2020 Camso at the same times. After switching back and forth we've been having discussions about the differences. All of us are in agreement that the Yeti suspension absolutely slays it on the rough whoops, trail G-outs etc. that's what $10K gets you, Camso yahhhh not so much, BUT and this is a big but, the Camso is far smoother. The Yeti and Camso have essentially the same track now but the Camso is silky smooth where the Yeti vibrates and echoes like a MoFo. It must be the carbon fibre passing every vibration through the tunnel back through entire kit and then into your body. Even though the Yeti has 5.5 rail spacing the Camos stills rolls over much easier than the Yeti, is easier to ride and has a better wheel feel than the Yeti specially when you are standing. I run a complete Yeti front end on my Camso so the front ends have all been identical. They sidehill about the same, my buddies old MH with a CMX track is the best side hiller by far but it handles like a tank so its not worth the trade off.

Where this is all leading is for me at any rate, I would really like to see a Riot style 129 monorail suspension with real shocks. I always liked the EZ Ryde and it worked awesome on sleds. I haven't had the chance to try a Riot yet but being a 120 its a non-starter for me plus the track is just OK, its not great both the CMX and Yeti/Camso tracks are superior, they just are.

My guinea pig days are behind me so I don't do product testing for companies which means I don't buy the first season of anything but I almost snow checked the 2020 Yeti thinking it had everything I wanted. Now after riding it a bunch I'm not sure its worth the nut, I'm kind of disappointed to be honest. The Camso goes anywhere the Yeti does and one guy handed me my ass with my own bike when he was riding it which was a little humbling I must say which probably means all the kits are better than me as a rider. Caveat, I can put my bike anywhere he can it just might take try or two more.

We had the bikes on the deck so in such a way that the holes for the wheel kit on the Yeti spindles were in alignment. The driver location on the Camso and Yeti are quite different, the Camso is about 2 inches lower and a little more forward. I felt like I was sitting high on top of the Yeti setup where on the Camso you are lower and kind of saddled in more like on my dirt bike which makes it much easier to shift your weight back as well as side to side. The Yeti has a lighter front end by good margin but gives up some stability, it likes to lift the front end which is good in some cases but not all for instance when it wheelies doing a steep sidehill up through trees its a PITA riding the gas cap. Looking at the CMX kit with the drivers so far forward is it a high ride as well, I've never had the chance to ride one? Two of the Yeti bikes were setup quite differently one IMO the soft strut is set too short which made it wild on climbs almost uncontrollable, the other one is set much longer which gave the front end a more stable planted feel, so yes set up matters.

In conclusion, for me at least, monorail is mandatory, Camso/Yeti track 2.5" seems to be the sweet spot, not too high of a riding position, balanced planted front end, wheelies are fun but get old quick when you are trying to get someplace so I don't really care about that mode, REAL suspension, exo drivers, belt drive would be nice but IMO its just for weight savings it really doesn't buy much, kit weight lighter is better but its not a deal breaker, great ski and spindle Camso ski is a good deep ski but kind of blows everywhere else, Yeti ski has been good would like to try a CMX ski.

Starting to look like I might have to just build my own kit. Get an Alpha skid, shorten it, use a Camso track, Avid drivers, Yeti/CMX front end, cro mo tube frame...….

M5

 

[Hawkster]

Nice write up , when the monorail came out I thought that it was the game changer needed in a mountain machine . How can anyone deny that a monorail would not be better , the rest are trying to do what they can't with two rails and would be better accomplished with a monorail . They sure do have a lot more bling and that is sad because the bling obviously sells because it seems to be the first comment people have about the Camso .

When the Alpha hit the floor I took measurements , obviously I'd have to add frame work that would actually hinder the machine because it's designed for a long tunnel , not gonna happen , I'll purchase the machine before I'd do that .

The manufacture that closed in the rails is a good idea for the ditch pounders but when it comes down to it just get rid of the two rails or mate them and work on what needs to be improved .

The down side to making a machine as nimble as a bike is that it's gonna have a learning curve , that means it will be an uphill battle .

It took how many years before they started curving the tracks ?

The E-Z-Ryde concept was done backwards , what is E-Z-Ryde known for ? The mountain ryders or deep snow conditions will have to wait because the manufacture is to busy selling ditch banger to them .

Can't you guys see this ?

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

Suspension design discussion ..........my favorite subject.

The mono rail in sleds is a huge departure /marketing risk of epic proportions..........has worked so far for cat.

The last 25 years in suspension improvements in bikes and sleds has just been incremental refinement in shock calibration. Nothing new. The RIOT is old hash...;....but I like it. As it is falling out of the box like all suspensions it needs shock and spring calibration to compliment the rider and his habits.............but hey, you got all the right basic parts.

Like motor car racing the biggest development in the last 25 years has been the RUBBER MEETING THE ROAD. Best bargain on the planet dollar for dollar. Racing tires, racing tracks, better knobbies, dual sport tires with better rubber compounds today are better traction than knobbies were just 10 years ago. If you put the current sled tracks on a 1995 sled, it would be a mind blower. Seat of pants snow bike improvements in my 8 years of fiddling with these creatures............way better tracks today...........oh and better shock calibration.

Narrow stance was tooooo tippy 35 years ago, now its embraced as magic. We darted around on those narrow sleds we built with tall seats and a standing position but trail riding at 80 was the public's goal and the sled mfg's goal.

Carbon fiber vs mush aluminum or mild steel, nobody is making big money and going fast on a rigid frame, with bumps you want to quietly a b s o r b the big hits. Mtn bikes, mx bikes, cross country bikes, sno x sleds, rigid chromemoly and carbon fiber are light and HARSH, brittle and $$$$$$............nope, been done, been tried been discarded. A novelty for sure, but just that.

Go watch the 800hp off road trucks going faster than you could stand, chrome moly and carbon fiber frames of course/suspension parts of course.............never worked, tooooo harsh, toooo brittle toooo UNFORGIVING.

BACK to: suspension is BUMP absorption , a wet towel is perfect bump absorption, steel springs suck, air is worse. Ideal rubber composition can be magic but rubber air springs in the correct size for snow bikes are hard to find.........I have a few.
The biggest advance in suspesnion has been better rubber.


Camso kit, case in point. Funky kit..........great track , can spank your 9k kit ? Funny.
Biggest upgrade on my RIOT, better track than I was running and fewer parts and lighter weight. Revolutionary suspension..........hardly.
Time for bed.
No doubt the 3" snowbike kit will be standard...........until 3.5 come along.

 

[M5-]

It is funny about the Camso kit. My techie brain wants to love riding and owning the Yeti and everything about it but my body loves how easy the cheap ass Camso is to ride and how well it actually works. I actually don't even really care about the cost savings. I also appreciate the build quality and modular design of the CMX kit but no monorail so probably not for me.

There was zero marketing done for the 2020 Camso in fact when I bought the new one I got a wheel kit and a $300 rebate from Camso that even my dealer didn't know about, it just showed up with the kit. The last three seasons I have just sold the old Camso and bought a new one, 2 more years of warranty minimal dollar loss after a season. So far I have barely even tightened a chain on the 2020 and I've got a lot of hours on it. So far so good seems like they have all the bugs worked out. Knock on wood. I looked hard at the Riot but I had so many bad experiences with my TS stuff after the buyout that I gave it a pass, that and also the 120 thing.

Now that Camso owns Yeti I'm starting to wonder if they are going to go strictly Yeti and drop the Camso kit all together because they are competing with themselves. I would like to spend some time on revalving the Camso shock because its waaay to soft on compression and basically has no rebound. They need to build the rising rate bolt on cams in differing profiles to be able to change the spring rate, one size does not fit all. Add in a Ti spring option and it could go from being so so to a decent suspension layout. The geometry changes from 2018 to 2019 are dead on they just need to reduce bottoming and make it a little more plush.

What really sells the monorail for me is when we are climbing through tight trees around tree wells etc where the trees have dumped snow into hard piles if I keep my eyes high and see it coming I can drive the bike over with my knees and basically my hands are free to add minimal steering and whack the gas. Other kits I find I have to use way more upper body which gets tiring over time.

 

[coryf89]

sooo what im getting out of this discussion so far is that yeti sucks... especially my 2017 yeti?

 

[M5-]

No not all, this was never meant to be a Yeti bash, I like the Yeti I think its taken them until 2020 to get it right but its an awesome kit, its easy to get off topic and ramble which I do often. I guess where I was heading is good shocks are a must, for me monorail etc etc. In the simplest terms can a narrow dual rail be as good as a monorail. So far its not there, its better but its not there.

Whats the ultimate rear suspension design?

 

[AnythingOutdoors]

I know you are talking about a mono trail kit, but have you ever looked at snowtech mx? They are definitely worth looking at if you haven't. It is the best built kit out there in my opinion. But I know my opion is just my opinion and doesn't mean much to you. Definitely worth a look though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

 

[M5-]

Here's the deal with that. I've been riding snowbikes exclusively since 2012. Up here in Canada during that time I have never seen a CMX or a Snowtech kit on the snow. Both the Snowtech and CMX kits look like high quality units but how can anybody here know there's no dealers to even see one let alone get a demo ride. I know they are out there but they just aren't around very much so while I hear what you are saying going that route with no dealer network isn't really practical, every part shipped gets delayed at customs coming across the border yada yada, it gets old fast.

I rode TS for a bunch of years and I just don't see myself going back to 8" rail spacing regardless of who makes the kit. I had my TS and my first Camso at the same time for a season, I never wanted to ride the TS after being on the monorail even though the TS with Raptor springs and valving had FAR better suspension. IMO next fall you wont be able give a pre 2020 Yeti away, with the exception of the SS which is 5.5". The one place where the wider rail spacing excels though is side hilling, its the action there specially on hard pack. I guess it comes down to what type of terrain a guy likes to ride and where you live.

Maybe I'm overthinking this.

 

[eric82930]

Yes the terrain is key. I don't like camso monorail or mototrax. They slide off the side hills too much. Even in soft snow they crab side ways just enough to scrub valuable speed. I locked out my moto trax and works as good as anything now. I will admit the feel of the mono rail is awesome until the side hills get extreme. I think a 5 inch dual rail without the full length cross bars might be the perfect compromise but I have yet to try one.

Now for suspension talk it should be springs, valving and shock position/linkage ratios. The camso at least has a rising rate system that allows its meager travel to run low and still not bottom. Same with mtx and cmx. they can be setup to be better than any ts but out of the box the valving and spring rates has been way off on all the ones I've rode. (Never tried cmx).

The ts yeti and snow tech are falling rate which have to ride high and stiff as too not sag too far into the valuable stroke before hitting the bump. They benefit the most from a tss for the big hits and plushness. If preload is too low on a falling rate kit they bottom out like crazy.

After all the suspension designs I've built the light weight and simplicity of the ts is plenty good enough for any soft snow but I ride in June every year and something like a cmx scissor or even a camso with more travel and dual rail would be the end all be all design for me. Mtx has great ride quality when re-valved but there is no throttle induced torque input to lift/lighten the ski and transfer weight onto the track. This can be good or bad depending on conditions. It works really well if you slide the kit 2" forward but stock it's like a rear wheel drive muscle car on ice with no sand bags in the trunk. Dense powder the mtx really works good.

 

[Texas Mud Taco]

What do you mean, you "locked out" your Mototrax? Are you referring to the 12.5* tilt?

Also, how are you sliding the kit 2" forward?

 

[eric82930]

What do you mean, you "locked out" your Mototrax? Are you referring to the 12.5* tilt?

Also, how are you sliding the kit 2" forward?

Yes fully locked. no tilt at all. No more track derailments either. To move the track forward you have to shorten the frame sliders between the swingarm bolt and strut mount.

 

[M5-]

eric, that's the kind of input I was hoping to solicit in this discussion. You are right the monorail gives it up on sidehills, I've grown used to the back end kicking out a bit. I should add I don't do much spring riding, once the powder is gone I tend to lose interest.

 

[Hawkster]

I mentioned this in a thread a few minutes ago , address the ski .
Monorail is getting blamed , if the ski turns up the track will follow .

 

[stealthy1]

I run an ARo ski on my cameo, no problem with the track washing out on an extreme sidehill! Mine is a 2018 updated to 2020 specs except for the lighter track.

 

[M5-]

If you want the lighter track, all Camso did was remove the outer nubs on the track, that's it as far as I can tell looking at my 19 and 20 kits side by side

 

[Hawkster]

I run an ARo ski on my cameo, no problem with the track washing out on an extreme sidehill! Mine is a 2018 updated to 2020 specs except for the lighter track.

It's not just motoring across a side hill it makes a difference all around . The ski needs to be so stiff that when you pick up the front end by the ski it does not pivot . The contact patch is to large and following the terrain is to much movement and actually makes for a more physical ride . Just try it first , I suppose it's not for everybody .

DuraPro Ski Dampener - Polaris RMK (Set of 2)

Replaces Polaris # 5415230, 5412794 and many others. The patented DuraPro ski dampener rubber offers many unique advantages including ...

www.duraprousa.com

Ski Bushing Stiffeners

Similar to the Ski Bushing Savers, the Ski Bushing Stiffeners stiffen ski articulation for better ski performance. Acting as a spacer underneath the ski rubber, they remove any extra play and applies more pressure against the spindle to stabilize the ski. Compatibility: SBG01B - Skidoo Gen 4...

munstercanada.com

 

[dooman92]

Eric, how did you lockout your mototrax? Bushing type spacer on both sides of motolink?
I also moved mine forward a bit and like it there.

 

[00Tundra]

@Hawkster will the durapro ski damper work and help on the Timbersled Mtn horse ski/spindle?

 

[Hawkster]

Here's a more reasonable approach if your talking the old TS ski . It fits snug and you have to get a little physical with it , once you figure it out it's easy with a little leverage . The ski will not want to tip forward , that's what some will want , front end acts more like a tire and is a lot easier to pop up . More aggressive riding , launch mode style when you want it .

 

[00Tundra]

Thanks I ride a YZ450FX with a 2016 TS 137 SX and I am a new rider I only have maybe 10 hrs on it. My front ski flops up and down like a dying fish. Wondering if more dampening will make it easier to ride. Thanks for your input. I am open to learn anything new.