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So what’s the difference in turbo kits out there?

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hatchers

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So what’s the difference in turbo kits out there?

A large volume of folks what to know the difference between the kits...well i guess im the only one with the balls to start such a thread...:face-icon-small-hap


Let us prey...Dear Lord let this thread be productive like threads were a few years ago...amen!:)

Please Please Please Keep it somewhat clean!!!!!::face-icon-small-win

Understand I am bias to the twisted kit...lets admit this current competitive turbo kit market is best for us (consumer)…so one day, kits will eventually get much cheaper and much better.

All I know is what ive had/rode (twsited/Cutlers/Boondockers) and the facts I hear from respectable forum members who post the mostly unbias truth.

Some of what i am saying might be incorrect...so its best the folks inside the turbo kit ring correct me and/or offer some details about the kits they offer, this thread is for folks who need more info in deciding what kit to purchase...lets keep is respectable:light:

Twisted Kits (attitude Fuel Controller) – Lets start with the Charge Tube (the volume of area multiplied by whatever time base that the compressor will take to overcome lag and get on boost)- This is the smallest charge tube volume area of any of the turbo kit companies (I think). This kit deletes the oil injection oil reservoir and allows room for a small 90-charge tube that drops directly to the small twisted kit air box. So its clear this kit has the potential to be the best for slow moving boondocking…I think all race kits get the additional injectors installed in the throttle bodies, this is achieved from fabricating the stock throttle bodies to allow room for 4 injectors. This will allow and more ideal fuel/air mix, leading to more power and less wasted fuel. I hear Cutlers is also doing this, but im not sure if its on a standard kit??? No 12V oil pump to supply the turbo will oil…Twisted uses the stock oil injection pump to supply oil to the turbo…some will ask, what if the oil pump fails, well that’s a long shot and its cheaper to replace a turbo bundle then replacing pistons and jugs…right? And understand the 12VDC oil pump that boodockers uses is great and you won’t find a thread to say otherwise. I hear all kits will now come with the quiet exhaust???? His turbo intake looks like something a blind 5th grader made in shop class

Boondockers race turbo kits with an intercooler – it will drop the intake temps with the aid of a fan, but it will also add a huge amount of lag when boondocking at a slower pace as this huge volume of area gets very hot at idle or moving through trees at a snales pace…im guessing a water/air exchanger with the aid of a fan would be even better. Changing reeds on this kit is a pain in the butt!!!! But i hear the aid of a fan will greatly help this issue , as it should. The air box is too big and you need to remove the intercooler to gain access. A few people hate the older fuel controller they had as it had way too many variables. Now I hear the new software is much better and way more simple…I do like the display and the advantage of looking at hard numbers…all the others use a bodeck controller that only has LEDs and three buttons…but they work great and everyone seems to love them. I also hear boondockers will release some trick stuff this year…something about a “push to pass” I guess it’s a button that kicks up the boost when you want more power at the touch of a button…this sounds way cool!!! Peolpe are liking the quiet sound of the revised tunnel exhasut dump..the older exhaust dump will get clogged with snow and bog your sled down in super deep dry pow....or atleast mine did:(

Cutlers (Attitude Fuel Controller)– well his kit is clean and defiantly the best looking kit. The Cutler M8 race kit I rode seemed to have no lag. The cold air intake is trick but it’s a bit over rated IMO. The discharge temps of the compressor are far more a variable that needs to be less then what it is...but we also want a quick spool up. He uses the stock exhaust port so its stealth and does not sound loud at all. Don’t get me wrong as I totally respect what Bill (inside joke) has brought to our aftermarket. Keep pushing forward as will the others.

OVS – never seen one
 
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Vertical-Extreme

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I can shed some light on the OVS kit, im not an expert but have a little know how.

they are quite similar to the twisted kit obviously, (no need to get into the history) they run the pure logic fuel controler, dual injectors as well, a custom designed simmons designed air box, this kit keeps the oil injection unlike the twisted kit. Here is a pic with all my plastic off of the OVS kit. it installs very clean as well
Black 001_small01.jpg
 
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D

deaner

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Nov 26, 2007
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Can anyone comment or offer any details on boondockers ADA system? Do the other kits offer this or anything similar.

Are any boondocker kit owners ditching the intercoolers? How are you going about this? I just bought a race gas kit with an intercooler and wondering what my options are.

How about fuel delivery on the different kits? Ive heard the choice of auxillary fuel pumps makes a difference in performance? Does any particular kit have an edge in that department, or they all using pretty much the same thing?
 
S

Snowstar

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Aug 22, 2006
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Boondocker and OVS I think use auxillary pumps combined with the stock fuel pump. Twisted and Cutler uses High Volume intank replaclement fuel pumps.
 
S

SNOW JW

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Can anyone comment or offer any details on boondockers ADA system? Do the other kits offer this or anything similar.

Going to give just a little info on the ADA
The ADA system allows the BD Box to adjust fuel delivery as air charge temp change thus giving you Less (and like allot P-gas kits most find little to no adjusting is needed)

Simple Tuner Programming™ percentage based turbo programming give you a super easy program to use.
http://www.boondockers.com/instructi... 3-20-09.pdf


ADA also records your max charge temp so you can keep an eye on charge temps throughout the day reseting it anytime you like. Most guys have no idea what there charge temps are doing I keep a close eye on mine and it also give me an idea on what my charge temps are with my mini intercooler VS a non intercooler.



Are any boondocker kit owners ditching the intercoolers? How are you going about this? I just bought a race gas kit with an intercooler and wondering what my options are.

Some have. I have run head to head after my sled is hot boondocking with my mini intercooler and see about 50 to even 70deg cooler charge temps running side by side with a non intercooler setup and in head to head up the hill and the colder charge temps do make a big differance.
The large race intercoolers are not for some guys with the little extra lag you gain so BD made the mini intercooler that is half the size this is the one .


How about fuel delivery on the different kits? Ive heard the choice of auxillary fuel pumps makes a difference in performance? Does any particular kit have an edge in that department, or they all using pretty much the same thing?


Many choices here are talking fuel pumps only or injectors??



First clean post I have seen in a long time hopefully it stays that way and NO bashing is done or implied in any way resulting in another thread gone bad. I would like to say BD has has been selling full scale production turbo kits for many years now and many new changes have been made every year (ADA,Electronic boost controller's,muffler kits ect ect) with the fast advancing technology in EFI systems and designs in the turbo kits
 
J

Jkinzer

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Nov 27, 2007
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Can anyone comment or offer any details on boondockers ADA system? Do the other kits offer this or anything similar.

Are any boondocker kit owners ditching the intercoolers? How are you going about this? I just bought a race gas kit with an intercooler and wondering what my options are.

How about fuel delivery on the different kits? Ive heard the choice of auxillary fuel pumps makes a difference in performance? Does any particular kit have an edge in that department, or they all using pretty much the same thing?

The ADA once set to the proper numbers works really well! last year being the first year the numbers at the begining of the season supplied by BD werent spot on, they were good but not spot on... Jared gave me some new numbers early January and i have not touched them since. With my application i bought the pump gas kit and just crank the boost up never running an intercooler or mini intercooler, ppl will say that i'm wasting power and performance running 13 or 14lbs with no intercooler but it runs as good or better than the sleds i'm around on a weekly basis and i'm happy with the power. We do a lot of tight tree boondocking and i found that even with the mini intercooler there was a little more lag than with out, and for tree riding the less lag the better
 

snowmanx

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Lets not forget about the turbo!!!lol The OVS that I have uses teh Garett 3071, I believe Twisted uses mostly the 3071, but both companies have some 3076s as well.

Maybe some clarification on why the bigger turbo is used on some? 1200 kits maybe.

I also have 04 900 carbed cat with a CPI mitshubishi kit on it that works quite well. Has oil delete, custom mechanical oil pump for the turbo, oil resovoir, and stock engine.
 

BigAir

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From what I have read the 3071 is for the 1000s and the 3076 is for the 1200s or those planning to upgrade to a 1200 down the road.
 
O
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I think it should be made clear that forced induction is always a matter of balancing your horsepower goals with your intended use. If you want a snappy boondocking setup or you want to run pump gas, you aren’t going to get the obscene numbers out of it. If you’re climbing long chutes and need the horsepower, you’re going to have to size the turbo and intercooler appropriately which will leave you unhappy in the trees.

Either pick your area of emphasis or shoot for something in the middle that does well at everything but excels at nothing. Just because you can turn the boost up does not mean that the system can support it (turbine efficiency, fuel delivery, intake charge temperature, head sealing, etc).

So all that said, I’ve been debating what to do for this year as well.

I’d pose the following questions:

What turbo does it use and what aspect ratio housing is it? I've been trying to come up with a good demand curve for a 2 stroke for a while but volumetric efficiency of a two stroke under boost is proving difficult to nail down.

Is the system intercooled? If so how?

What blow off valve does it use and where is it located?

What’s the plenum design like? Does it provide an even charge volume to both cylinders ?

What amount of horsepower is it designed to create and be honest. Non intercooled setups won’t make big numbers without preignition/detonation and horrible heat soak but they will be cheaper and snappier.

What fuel will the kit run on?

Is it internally or externally wastegated?

How is the turbo lubricated?

How is boost regulated? Simple manual boost controller or electronically? Stepper motor or solenoid if electronic?

The following questions don’t so much pertain to each kit but more the upgradability of the stock fuel system.

Are the stock lines providing a horsepower ceiling or is it the stock injectors? Pump? I’d assume you have to at least swap out for a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, what else?

Can you raise the base operating pressure of the injectors to compensate for low boost setups?

When does the oil pump run out of capacity and you have to start premixing?

Has anyone played with larger injectors or is everyone just piggybacking a second set of injectors? Are they high or low impedence? Interchangeable with a standard Denso injector or something completely different?

What is the limit of the stator? You can only put some much extra load on it before it pukes and oil pumps, fuel pumps, etc will use up any extra capacity quick.

What are the motors limits? Obviously the stock cast pistons won’t hold up to ANY detonation or tuning errors, how well is the crank and rods holding up?

Is head sealing an issue? If so how is it being rectified? Stronger studs, more rigid head, whats working?

Then there is fuel management, has anyone come up with a stand alone ecu or is everything a piggyback?

That may be a more extensive list than some care about, but it’s a good way to look at the difference between products. I'm still debating an HCR vs an m1000 as a base.
 
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JMCX

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I have zero first hand experience with turbos but I like Cutlers install. No cutting of pipe, tunnel or side panel and cool air induction. If you could couple it with BD's new whizzy controls seems like it would be a good setup.
 
7
Fuel Controler

This is a great post guys and staying clean I like it.

Since stated above you can see that a couple of the kits use the Attitude EFI box. I just wanted to give you my .02 on this also since I do all the programing.

The Twisted and CPC turbo kits use the Attitude EFI box. Some people may not know but even though these are the same box, and adjust simular they are diffrent. There is a actually quit abit of diffrence in software which adjusts the fuel curve between the two kits listed above. Even though they use the same turbo in some cases, clutching, motor mods, and spool up time make a diffrence in are programing.

You also have pump gas kits that both these companies do that use the stock injectors with no extra injectors to the race kits which use what we call Power jets (know as the extra injectors). Twisted mods the stock throttle boddies and CPC uses cast or billet once that also increas the MM of the trottle body. This is also a diffrence between these two kits since that will also make a velocity diffrence in air going to the motor.

Another diffrence is the stinger end these two companies use. They are also diffrent which can make for diffrent spool times, and power band.

I have onley ridden a few BD kits but do not know all the details on them. I get along with Jared and Rocky and we always say hi to each other at shows or the races. I know they are releasing a few new things this winter, we got a few things up are sleves also :D I dont have all the info on their kits like the two kits above since I dont work with them every day. But I got to say Shain and Dale are great guys to work with and have a passion for the sport and take care of people who buy their kits.
 
H

hatchers

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Nov 26, 2007
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www.snowestonline.com
Can anyone comment or offer any details on boondockers ADA system? Do the other kits offer this or anything similar.

Are any boondocker kit owners ditching the intercoolers? How are you going about this? I just bought a race gas kit with an intercooler and wondering what my options are.

How about fuel delivery on the different kits? Ive heard the choice of auxillary fuel pumps makes a difference in performance? Does any particular kit have an edge in that department, or they all using pretty much the same thing?

Talk with Snow JW about what he can offer...and then talk with Shane about what he has to offer, Both of thesw guys are great to deal with, then make the call

It sounds like i had the same kit as you currently have....IMO, ditch the intercooler, get a high volume fuel pump as the stock fuel pump of the goofy duel pumps will go bad before the high volume pump will, double up with some new M1000 reeds, the top side reeds are the ones that get eat up, im guessing you have the tunnel dump exhasut that dumps forward of the drivers??....if so, replace with an exhaust that routes outside, and muffler section is nice as straight pipe will make your ears bleed.....mine ran fine without ADA, but it sounds like something that is greatly needed.

All in all, the forward driver tunnel dump was my biggest issue, bog city in dry pow pow, the intercooler would be the next biggest problem....loads up with hot air at slow boondocking speeds
 
O
Aug 17, 2009
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Garrett, Aerocharger, Mistubishi, Superchargers.....At the end of the day they ALL contribute to HP....IMhO, the trick at the end of a 65 mile powder day boils down to the boost kit which offers the best rideable horsepower everyday you ride. With the best rideable fuel controler

Theres also lots of programmers coming out with better and better programs for fuel managment system on the EFI side of thing, while the carberator kits are catching up real real fast as well.

Hatch didn't you ride a boosted M8 last season ?

OT
 
P

product tester

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Nov 27, 2007
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Lets not forget about the turbo!!!lol The OVS that I have uses teh Garett 3071, I believe Twisted uses mostly the 3071, but both companies have some 3076s as well.

Maybe some clarification on why the bigger turbo is used on some? 1200 kits maybe.

I also have 04 900 carbed cat with a CPI mitshubishi kit on it that works quite well. Has oil delete, custom mechanical oil pump for the turbo, oil resovoir, and stock engine.

We are using the 3076 on the 1000 also. They work well and are a little smoother on power. They have a little more on the top end. The bottom end responce are close to the same but the 3076 cost about 500. more just for the turbo.
 
P

product tester

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Nov 27, 2007
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I think it should be made clear that forced induction is always a matter of balancing your horsepower goals with your intended use. If you want a snappy boondocking setup or you want to run pump gas, you aren’t going to get the obscene numbers out of it. If you’re climbing long chutes and need the horsepower, you’re going to have to size the turbo and intercooler appropriately which will leave you unhappy in the trees.

Either pick your area of emphasis or shoot for something in the middle that does well at everything but excels at nothing. Just because you can turn the boost up does not mean that the system can support it (turbine efficiency, fuel delivery, intake charge temperature, head sealing, etc).

So all that said, I’ve been debating what to do for this year as well.

I’d pose the following questions:

What turbo does it use and what aspect ratio housing is it? I've been trying to come up with a good demand curve for a 2 stroke for a while but volumetric efficiency of a two stroke under boost is proving difficult to nail down.

Is the system intercooled? If so how?

What blow off valve does it use and where is it located?

What’s the plenum design like? Does it provide an even charge volume to both cylinders ?

What amount of horsepower is it designed to create and be honest. Non intercooled setups won’t make big numbers without preignition/detonation and horrible heat soak but they will be cheaper and snappier.

What fuel will the kit run on?

Is it internally or externally wastegated?

How is the turbo lubricated?

How is boost regulated? Simple manual boost controller or electronically? Stepper motor or solenoid if electronic?

The following questions don’t so much pertain to each kit but more the upgradability of the stock fuel system.

Are the stock lines providing a horsepower ceiling or is it the stock injectors? Pump? I’d assume you have to at least swap out for a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, what else?

Can you raise the base operating pressure of the injectors to compensate for low boost setups?

When does the oil pump run out of capacity and you have to start premixing?

Has anyone played with larger injectors or is everyone just piggybacking a second set of injectors? Are they high or low impedence? Interchangeable with a standard Denso injector or something completely different?

What is the limit of the stator? You can only put some much extra load on it before it pukes and oil pumps, fuel pumps, etc will use up any extra capacity quick.

What are the motors limits? Obviously the stock cast pistons won’t hold up to ANY detonation or tuning errors, how well is the crank and rods holding up?

Is head sealing an issue? If so how is it being rectified? Stronger studs, more rigid head, whats working?

Then there is fuel management, has anyone come up with a stand alone ecu or is everything a piggyback?

That may be a more extensive list than some care about, but it’s a good way to look at the difference between products. I'm still debating an HCR vs an m1000 as a base.

All the statements and question in this post are great I dont even know where to start I will say that from the sounds of it you have some experiance with 4 stroke turbos.On 2 strokes not every theroy applies like big power with out an intercoller, this is totally doable,keep this in mind the 2 stroke moves air twice as fast as a 4 stroke.
As for when they run to lean on oil for the 8 about 14 #s you doulble the fuel in take. I would say thats starting to see 80 to 1 oil fuel ratio. On the 1000 at 10 #s you are double the fuel at 14 you are almost tripple the fuel. 120 to 1 is never good.
as for the motor studs and head they are holding up on the 1200 up to 18 #s of boost but when you go higher lots of things start to change I think the biggest problem I have seen at higher boost is the base gasket failing.
 
J

JSCC

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Nov 26, 2004
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Huntsville,Ut
All the statements and question in this post are great I dont even know where to start I will say that from the sounds of it you have some experiance with 4 stroke turbos.On 2 strokes not every theroy applies like big power with out an intercoller, this is totally doable,keep this in mind the 2 stroke moves air twice as fast as a 4 stroke.
As for when they run to lean on oil for the 8 about 14 #s you doulble the fuel in take. I would say thats starting to see 80 to 1 oil fuel ratio. On the 1000 at 10 #s you are double the fuel at 14 you are almost tripple the fuel. 120 to 1 is never good.
as for the motor studs and head they are holding up on the 1200 up to 18 #s of boost but when you go higher lots of things start to change I think the biggest problem I have seen at higher boost is the base gasket failing.

Shain, while I like ya, I have to call you out on your oil theory.....
It takes a certain amount of oil to lube a moving part, correct? Now let's say that part is moving at 1000 revolutions per minute. And lets say it takes 3 parts of oil (just used for my explanation) to lube that part at 1000 rpm. So lets also say at 8000 rpm it now takes 24 parts of oil. Correct?
No matter the fuel demand on an engine, they are still moving parts. They still only require so much lubrication to keep them moving. Yes, this will throw the fuel to oil out of wack in high boost applications, but the engine design to run at a certain rpm is still getting the same oil it needs.
What are your thoughts?
On a side note.............I premix:D:devil:
 
P

product tester

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Nov 27, 2007
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Jcss If you dump oil in gas it delutes more gas =less oil ,You can get away with alot if ya want. I have seen this cause problems. When you premix you are always at 40 to 1 no matter what boost or rpm.
 
T

TurboM700

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Nov 26, 2007
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Shain, while I like ya, I have to call you out on your oil theory.....
It takes a certain amount of oil to lube a moving part, correct? Now let's say that part is moving at 1000 revolutions per minute. And lets say it takes 3 parts of oil (just used for my explanation) to lube that part at 1000 rpm. So lets also say at 8000 rpm it now takes 24 parts of oil. Correct?
No matter the fuel demand on an engine, they are still moving parts. They still only require so much lubrication to keep them moving. Yes, this will throw the fuel to oil out of wack in high boost applications, but the engine design to run at a certain rpm is still getting the same oil it needs.
What are your thoughts?
On a side note.............I premix:D:devil:


I see what your saying but your introducing 2-3 times the fuel into the motor. There for your oil is being thinned down 2-3 times then normal. It has nothing to do with what the motor takes for rpm its a simple ration. If you mix your gas 50-1 then you mix it 150-1 the motor parts are going to see 3 times less fuel with the 150-1. I hope this makes sense. One thing I also notice on mine when it was mixed is it cleaned up the bottom end and make it much more responsive.

Some time when I have a few extra hours. Im going to take my stock oil pump and hook it up to a servo and see what the ration this thing will put out at different rpm. I'm thinking its know where near as accurate as we think for (50-1) or what ever the number may be.

that my 2 cents

Mike
 
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