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Revelstoke Avalanche: >> It's time to honor the heros!

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S
Jun 4, 2009
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Park city, mt
I agree whole heartedly with what you said. After i heard about the avalanche i searched for it on msn and it went to a video on CTN where they described what happened and then started bringing down the snowmobile community. The entire comment section on that website were all liberal ideals bringing down the snowmobiling communities. I was not happy but what Susie said makes everything come back around. Thank you for your peace of mind and hopefully some of those people see this.
 
H
Feb 9, 2009
3
3
3
Time to wake up...and grow up

Having been a backcountry skier and snowmobiler for over a decade now I feel I have some background to comment on the latest incidents with some perspective.
I came to snowmobiling from a mountaineering and ski touring background, 30 years worth, then took up riding a sled for access and general fun. I have been a competitive dirt biker also since my teens. So in short, I like motors as much as I like the escape to the mountains in silence and solitude.

but what is so missing in this debate/discussion is the lack of understanding regarding the two completely and incompatible realities that play out every time a sledder heads into uncontrolled, big, technical, complex mountain terrain.

case in point...I am riding with a group of buddies last year, none of which have any backcountry skiing experience. We come to a big col and a huge cornice collapse has occured within the last 24 hours...I stop, to consider and ponder whether there is more threat ahead and whether or not I want to proceed. The entire group of riders (combined experience of 40+years of sledding) simply gas it and blast through and over the debris to the other side and safety. Now if I was a backcountry skier (which is the way my safety system is wired)...I don't have the option to blast thru the danger zone in 30 seconds...rather I would have needed to walk thru it for 20 minutes which means a lot more exposure potentially so I would have to be careful. But here is the problem, the guys on the sleds, ALSO are at great potential risk, but because they can blast thru the perceived danger zone in a matter of seconds, they don't even think about it. Yet the risk is still there and still real. And as we all know it only takes a split second and it is all over.

So my point is this. As a backcountry skier/climber you learn that you are always at risk in the terrain and because you are so exposed all the time (6 hours to a roadhead..not 45 minutes) etc. you develop a completely different mountain ethic. A mountain ethic regarding the objective hazards in the terrain that is much more realistic for saving your *** and your friends.
Until the vast majority of people who ride sleds in the backcountry wake up and realize that this is NOT a motocross track, that the hazards are still there whether or not you are travelling at 60kph or walking speed, there will be a lot more deaths and accidents. The mountains have never been the place for bravado. The alpine is no place for an attitude of testosterone monster truck mentality, if you behaved like this as a climber or a backcountry skier...you will be dead. Sooner or later, you will die. Even if you are very careful, sometimes you will die in the mountains just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Treating the mountains in winter like they are a roadside attraction, a roadside playground rather than the serious uncontrolled environment that they really are, simply is negligent and ignoring the truth. Wake up sled community...you continue to be your own worst enemies.
 

smokindave

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Having been a backcountry skier and snowmobiler for over a decade now I feel I have some background to comment on the latest incidents with some perspective.
I came to snowmobiling from a mountaineering and ski touring background, 30 years worth, then took up riding a sled for access and general fun. I have been a competitive dirt biker also since my teens. So in short, I like motors as much as I like the escape to the mountains in silence and solitude.

but what is so missing in this debate/discussion is the lack of understanding regarding the two completely and incompatible realities that play out every time a sledder heads into uncontrolled, big, technical, complex mountain terrain.

case in point...I am riding with a group of buddies last year, none of which have any backcountry skiing experience. We come to a big col and a huge cornice collapse has occured within the last 24 hours...I stop, to consider and ponder whether there is more threat ahead and whether or not I want to proceed. The entire group of riders (combined experience of 40+years of sledding) simply gas it and blast through and over the debris to the other side and safety. Now if I was a backcountry skier (which is the way my safety system is wired)...I don't have the option to blast thru the danger zone in 30 seconds...rather I would have needed to walk thru it for 20 minutes which means a lot more exposure potentially so I would have to be careful. But here is the problem, the guys on the sleds, ALSO are at great potential risk, but because they can blast thru the perceived danger zone in a matter of seconds, they don't even think about it. Yet the risk is still there and still real. And as we all know it only takes a split second and it is all over.

So my point is this. As a backcountry skier/climber you learn that you are always at risk in the terrain and because you are so exposed all the time (6 hours to a roadhead..not 45 minutes) etc. you develop a completely different mountain ethic. A mountain ethic regarding the objective hazards in the terrain that is much more realistic for saving your *** and your friends.
Until the vast majority of people who ride sleds in the backcountry wake up and realize that this is NOT a motocross track, that the hazards are still there whether or not you are travelling at 60kph or walking speed, there will be a lot more deaths and accidents. The mountains have never been the place for bravado. The alpine is no place for an attitude of testosterone monster truck mentality, if you behaved like this as a climber or a backcountry skier...you will be dead. Sooner or later, you will die. Even if you are very careful, sometimes you will die in the mountains just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Treating the mountains in winter like they are a roadside attraction, a roadside playground rather than the serious uncontrolled environment that they really are, simply is negligent and ignoring the truth. Wake up sled community...you continue to be your own worst enemies.



I see what you are saying,but must question why do most backcountry skiers,heli skiers imparticular,why do they break the number one rule,one person on the slope at a time?
Every advertisement or sled video I've ever seen shows a group of skiers all skiing down the same slope at the same time.
It is the same testosterone that is killing backcountry skiers,at usually a greater rate than sledders every season.
In my opinion you will find way more professionalism and thoughtfullness with sledders than anyone else in the backcountry.
I have too agree with you on one point we all need to wake up,get training,this to everyone that uses the backcountry,not just sledders.


Dave
 
I

Insaneboltrounder/sjohns

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Nov 26, 2007
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I saw a comment in here " we wouldnt have been at turbo if we knew it was going to slide". When was the last time anyone knew a slope was going to let go? They all can , they all will.... they just dont do you the favor of telling you when. There will be small hints and whispers... no promises.
I thought after taking avey training i would feel he freedom of know whats safe and what isnt. I was wrong. Now i know nothing is 100% safe , heck , nothing is 75% safe. I learned how to be better prepped and equipped for when the doodoo hits the fan.
The fact that anyone is still out there on large slopes boggles my mind. The skiing companies must have sone well trained ppl yet they are still not guessing right. Thats right folks , its a guess. No one can tell you when a slide will occur. Are you willing to bet the farm on a guess? When stuff is letting go , all around , your best guess is that more is coming. When locals are telling you that they arent going to turbo because its unsafe .... listen.
And yes Im pointing a finger there...at someone who must be terrified of fingers by now. sj
 
O

Oregongirl

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Jul 25, 2002
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I just want to say - since you posted this in the thread about honoring the heros......that my article/commentary was in direct response to the blasting that the media was dishing out at sledders immediately following the event. It was biased, uncalled for and severely inappropriate. People had DIED! Several were in the hospital, at least one still is, I think.

I am not, nor did I intend, my comments to be defending the choices made that day. Without a doubt those choices will very likely impact sledding and access rights as a whole. Two people paid for those choices with their lives. More will be paying in many other ways as they recover and heal.

  • They acted heroically in terms of responding AFTER the avy.
  • 100s, maybe 1000s, did heed the avy warnings and were not there.
  • Sledders are NOT, as a whole, crazy, thrill-seeking, thoughtless ignorants.
  • Sledders are gainfully employed and are ACTIVE participants in the sustainable economies of mountain communities.

These discussions and the outpouring of concern about what happens next are good and needed. I won't argue that point. As a group and with every avy that happens, we need to LEARN from it.

However, I'm getting pretty sick of people repeatedly stating - within our own community - about those sledder's choices. SERIOUSLY - if your child was killed by drowning because he wasn't wearing a life jacket while rafting.....would you want to hear about what a dumb decision that was??? Would you have to state the obvious to make your point. Can't we find a way to discuss this without slandering the people who were there??? We all make mistakes in life, some more costly than others. At best, they made a mistake. Whether it was an informed or uninformed decision will never be known by most of us.

Okay - rant over. I hope I've made my point.
 

CatWoman

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Thanks Susie! :)

Plus we got comments like the following. :face-icon-small-fro

wild and wooley, irresponsible, danger-seeking sledders who drink and “drive” on a regular basis and give sledders the reputation they have.
:puke:
 

Kingston Turbo

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every day life presents the same dangers as an avy! driving to work,crossing the street,sometimes choking while eating. the unexpected will jump out and get you. hind site is allways 20/20 and is allways a learning curve. crystall balls havent been invented yet either,so we make decisions on the hope that it is the right one at the time. every one has made the wrong one more than once,(except the media,their never wrong). I am a firm beliver that when your number is up ITS UP, and hopfully i will be doing something i love and enjoy SLEDDING when its up! I ride a big turboed apex, so i guess i could be classed as a crazy thrill seeker, life would just suck with out an addrenilan rush when i am out there. will rogers said "we are all ignorant, just in different ways" the media covers all the ways at once!
 

numbskull

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"The thing that binds us together is our great love for the back country in the winter. We are modern day adventurers. We want to get out there – in the mountains. We want to explore and play and wonder at the beauty. We love the snow! When it covers the trees, when it flies up in our faces, when it gives us a playground of vast proportions. That is when we are in heaven. That is when our souls glow. "

Susie- You Rock!!!!!!! Thank you. It brought tears to my eyes.

I loved this statement too - it is so true and I feel it every time I ride.
 
Last edited:
K
Feb 26, 2008
18
95
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You are not alone

My name is Karl Klassen. I am the Public Avalanche Bulletins Manager for the Canadian Avalanche Centre in Revelstoke. I have 32 seasons experience as an avalanche professional and mountain guide. I have played in and made a living in most aspects of avalanche work in many mountain ranges around the world. I am married with an almost-nine year old son. Our family regularly goes into the mountains, including the backcountry, both in winter and in summer.

On behalf of the CAC and all its staff as well as from my family and I, I extend sincere condolences and sympathies to the families and friends of victims of the recent fatal avalanches. In addition we send our hopes for a speedy and full recovery to those who were injured.

I am not a sledder. But I feel have a lot in common with your world. My love for adventure and excitement, my attraction to riding in great snow, and my appreciation for the beauty and majesty of the mountain environment are exactly the same as what many of you have recently expressed in the media, on forums like this, and through personal communications. Like many of you, I also feel that risk is an essential component of life and that eliminating all risk would kill an essential part of my being. And like you, I have had friends, colleagues, and co-workers perish in avalanches.

I can personally relate to the grief many of you are feeling as a result of having friends or family lose their lives or suffer the long term debilitating effects of serious injuries. I’m very familiar with the feelings of anger and resentment many of you feel due to the negative public and media sentiments aimed at the snowmobiling community as a whole. I have been directly or indirectly involved in numerous avalanche and other accidents in the last 30 years and I can say from personal experience that, while it may feel you are being singled out, you are not alone in any of this.

In addition, I know all about how it feels to see the call for regulation of my sport and my profession. It doesn’t matter if it’s a mountaineer (like Philip Abbot who was killed on Mount Lefroy in 1896) or skiers (like the 14 -- 7 of them children -- who perished in back to back accidents in the early winter of 2003) or sledders (like last year and this year). The general public and the media have a hard time understanding, don’t (or can’t) get the whole story, and seldom seem to get the story quite right. In each of the examples I mention above, there have been calls to ban or regulate certain mountain activities and in fact, past accidents in the skiing community have resulted in federal, provincial, and internal regulation that affect me personally and my community as a whole.

You are not alone in any of this.

Rest assured, we at the CAC know full well the majority of snowmobilers make reasonable decisions about avalanche risk. I know that the accidents in the last couple of weeks are not indicative of sledders’ general approach. I know there have been thousands of people sledding all over the province during the past few weeks who have had a wonderful time with their friends and families while making informed decisions about the risks involved and maintaining safety margins that keep risk within their personal comfort level.

I do not for one minute believe that any of the people who were killed or injured in recent accidents deliberately put themselves in a position where they felt there was a risk of serious injury or death. I do not believe that any parent would knowingly or deliberately put their child in such a position, nor do I believe that anyone, even the most daring risk-taker would put themselves in a position where they knew the outcome would be their own death or the death of someone else.

I have debated for a long while whether I should post this or not because I'm an outsider. But in the end, I think I have something to offer if you folks are interested and willing to hear a perspective from another segment of the backcountry community that lives, works, and plays in the mountains.

I have more to say, about some posts in this thread and others as well as about more general thoughts expressed by various people, which run counter to my personal experience and which I think need to be discussed but I will not go any farther now. I'll wait to see what kind of response this post generates and if you are interested and willing to hear more about my personal experience with avalanches and avalanche terrain both in general and in response to some of the specific comments I've been hearing lately, let me know and I'll post more if you think it is appropriate.

I'll check back here now and then or you can send me a pm or email: kklassen@avalanche.ca to tell me what you think.

Be safe.
 
O

Oregongirl

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I have debated for a long while whether I should post this or not because I'm an outsider. But in the end, I think I have something to offer if you folks are interested and willing to hear a perspective from another segment of the backcountry community that lives, works, and plays in the mountains.

Karl, thank you for posting! I would hope that no one here treats you as an outsider just because you aren't a snowmobiler. :face-icon-small-win At the end of the day, we all find our joy and pleasure in life doing different things. Those of us who find that joy in the backcountry are more alike than disalike. IMO.

I truly believe it's a few individuals from the disparate groups that create the dissension....but I know that some areas (of the country) are worse than others in terms of that dissension. PLUS - the media is NEVER helpful in creating unity - on any topic/subject!!! :face-icon-small-fro

So, I guess my point is, thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with us. I for one would be interested in hearing more about your experiences. Backcountry users need to ban together to share knowledge, experience and insight - and be prepared to stand together to ensure those who do not understand our passion, are not able to gain ground in closing the backcountry to us.
 

CatWoman

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Great post Susie.....my sentiments exactly!

Karl, we welcome you here. :) Discussion is good for ALL, and very nice to get a perspective from someone with the experience you have.

Sandy
 

spoon

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I would love to hear more from the experts in this field. This is what they do and we rely on the info they give us to help in our own decisions and knowledge of what to do in the backcountry in such situations as what happened to us in Revy.
 
T

turboxp

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May 13, 2008
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not where i sled
Karl.

As a sledder i can tell you that i do appreciate your post Karl good to see that we are not alone with our love of the back country.Log in any time as far as i am concerned.
 
O
Feb 11, 2010
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People just need to stop buttering up the truth and own up for there mistakes in the backcountry. Avalanche Crime is on the rise folks and has gone runumuck in the backcountry. 1000's of avy's go un reported. The ones we hear about are the ones that cause death which in turn attracts media attention to the sport.

Just have a look at the sled video's folks is there any dought that in those vids there not tinkering with death ?

OT
 

Norway

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People just need to stop buttering up the truth and own up for there mistakes in the backcountry. Avalanche Crime is on the rise folks and has gone runumuck in the backcountry. 1000's of avy's go un reported. The ones we hear about are the ones that cause death which in turn attracts media attention to the sport.

Just have a look at the sled video's folks is there any dought that in those vids there not tinkering with death ?

OT

Ok Cristopher! Where the heck did that ignore feature go?!:face-icon-small-fro

OT: I hear ya, but right now you're just a well-pisser!! Find a constructive release for all this steam your venting! 2 weeks of the same words...
 
S

Scott1

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Oct 7, 2009
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Mr. Klassen, Thank you for your perspective on this, I would love to hear more.

and OT give it up I'm sure I'm not the only one who is sick of your sh*t
 
K
Feb 26, 2008
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Have a safe Easter

Thanks for the positive feedback. I'll start working on some of the thoughts I have next week.

In the meantime, we are very busy here at the CAC and I don’t have time to do an in-depth update. I do want to remind people that even though avalanches are much harder to trigger now than they were even a week ago and we are seeing far less slides in recent days, there are still signs that the weak layers we’ve been talking about since February are still capable of producing very large, destructive avalanches.

Our February/March avalanche photo gallery is at:
http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/library/avalanche-image-galleries/feb-march-2010

Take a look at the two most recent photos the gallery:
http://www.avalanche.ca/uploads/gallery/2/MPS-1.jpg
http://www.avalanche.ca/uploads/gallery/2/MPS-4.jpg

While isolated incidents, these are indicative of the potential that still exists out there.

Please be careful if you are considering going into the following mountains this weekend:
• North Rockies (north and east of Prince George to the Alberta border.
• Columbia Mountains south of highway 16 to the US border, between Quesnel, Williams Lake, Kamloops, and Osyoos on the west and Valemount, Blue River, Golden, and Cranbrook on the east.
• South Chilcotin Mountains north of Pemberton and east of the South Coast Mountain divide.

In these areas, the advice provided here: http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/library/researchandarticles/PWLpaper0910 is applicable.

The CAC Avalanche Forecasts at: http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/bulletins/regions provide information that is updated daily to help you make informed decisions if you plan to go into the mountains.

Have a great Easter weekend and Easter holidays but play safe.

Please send this on or repost in other venues freely.

Karl Klassen
Public Avalanche Bulletins Manager
Canadian Avalanche Centre
kklassen@avalanche.ca
 
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