*** Letter from Forest Service-Possible Closures *** TEANAWAY POSSE ENFORCEMENT

[Lake Cle Elum]

March 23rd Letter from Cle Clem Forest Service Supervisor Tim Foss:

Dear fellow snowmobilers,

Once again, the issue of snowmobilers riding in wilderness is rearing its head. This is not a new issue, as you know, but it seems to be on the increase again. We are getting more and more letters from backcountry skiers who are really unhappy about seeing and hearing snowmobiles in wilderness, and once again the drumbeats for closing routes that get close to wilderness are getting louder. As you know, we (the Forest Service) are completely unable to patrol these boundaries with any degree of effectiveness. We will be putting up signs, and flyers at sno-parks, but I'm also asking for your help in getting on top of this. If you could pass this message on to your riding buddies, clubs, and especially folks you see in the woods who may be inclined to ride in wilderness:
"RIDING IN WILDERNESS LEADS TO CLOSURES OUTSIDE WILDERNESS". Or as I like put it "Every time you put a track in wilderness, you hand a box of ammunition to those who want to shut down our sport" Also, if you are aware of an incursion point that could use a sign, contact me and I'll get you one. You guys have always been helpful , and I'd appreciate any continued help in getting the message out. I'm also not very computer savvy, so if anyone would like to post something on Sno-West or other appropriate forums, that would be great.. Thanks in advance for your help!


Tim Foss
Trails, Wilderness, ORV, and Winter Recreation Manager
Cle Elum Ranger District

 

[JETJOHNSO]

WILDERNESS PROBLEMS, PLEASE HELP

To all who ride close (or in ) the wilderness area's of our state, I received an email from Tim Foss of the Cle Elum forest service, He deals with Winter Recreation and is or has been a wilderness ranger for years.. I have dealt with Tim for a long long time. I would never say one bad word about him, he is truely one of the "good guys" with the froest service, he has always been helpful know matter what the problem, and knows our area very well, he is just giving us the oportunity to "police" our self's before it gets any worse. here is his email. Again, he is just doing his job and not against us in any way.


Dear fellow snowmobilers,
Once again, the issue of snowmobilers riding in wilderness is rearing its head. This is not a new issue, as you know, but it seems to be on the increase again. We are getting more and more letters from backcountry skiers who are really unhappy about seeing and hearing snowmobiles in wilderness, and once again the drumbeats for closing routes that get close to wilderness are getting louder. As you know, we (the Forest Service) are completely unable to patrol these boundaries with any degree of effectiveness. We will be putting up signs, and flyers at sno-parks, but I'm also asking for your help in getting on top of this. If you could pass this message on to your riding buddies, clubs, and especially folks you see in the woods who may be inclined to ride in wilderness:
"RIDING IN WILDERNESS LEADS TO CLOSURES OUTSIDE WILDERNESS". Or as I like put it "Every time you put a track in wilderness, you hand a box of ammunition to those who want to shut down our sport" Also, if you are aware of an incursion point that could use a sign, contact me and I'll get you one. You guys have always been helpful , and I'd appreciate any continued help in getting the message out. I'm also not very computer savvy, so if anyone would like to post something on Sno-West or other appropriate forums, that would be great.. Thanks in advance for your help!


Tim Foss
Trails, Wilderness, ORV, and Winter Recreation Manager
Cle Elum Ranger District

 

[JETJOHNSO]

looks like we both got the email from tim

I guess we were thinking alike,

 

[summit800]

boarders

I hope that he is at least going out and surveying the areas at question, and not just taking there word for it that there are indeed riding in the wilderness, Its amazing on how many people out there dont know where there at!! and where the boarders are

 

[summit800]

also get some of the areas, and I'll gladly go out and watch and turn them in!!!

 

[rmkboxer]

signs would be good for those who do not know where the boundaries are. Idaho uses signs where they don't want sleds

 

[sledheadedd]

This is not a new issue, as you know, but it seems to be on the increase again. We are getting more and more letters from backcountry skiers who are really unhappy about seeing and hearing snowmobiles in wilderness, and once again the drumbeats for closing routes that get close to wilderness are getting louder. As you know, we (the Forest Service) .

thats not right for backcontry skiers to just say they saw and heard snowmobiles out in wilderness.how do thay get 15 miles out in "bc" on their down hill ski"s. thats cool anybody can say what they want! and we the snowmobilers are the ones that pay so know your boundaries.

 

[deepdiver]

there are also those that own snowmobiles, to go skiing with, in the wilderness. I wonder how many times they have delibertly tracked an area just to take pictures or used there 500.00 beater sled as a tool to get better skiing. One of those things that makes you go Hmmmmmm?

 

[newtrout]

thats not right for backcontry skiers to just say they saw and heard snowmobiles out in wilderness.how do thay get 15 miles out in "bc" on their down hill ski"s. thats cool anybody can say what they want! and we the snowmobilers are the ones that pay so know your boundaries.

there are also those that own snowmobiles, to go skiing with, in the wilderness. I wonder how many times they have delibertly tracked an area just to take pictures or used there 500.00 beater sled as a tool to get better skiing. One of those things that makes you go Hmmmmmm?

Both these things may be true, but we're kidding ourselves if we want to pretend like snowmobilers don't ride Wilderness, and it's all some conspiracy. We all know that a novice rider is going to have a hard time accessing Wilderness in the Teanaway. You have to try to get in there.

Tim is making a genuine request for us to try and police ourselves. He isn't out to try and shut us down, and he isn't going to shut us down based on undocumented anecdotes from a couple skiers. But, it's hard for him to ignore photo documentation that is dropped on his desk time and time again.

He's asking us nicely to quit stepping on our own ****s and stay out of Wilderness.

 

[newtrout]

there are also those that own snowmobiles, to go skiing with, in the wilderness. I wonder how many times they have delibertly tracked an area just to take pictures or used there 500.00 beater sled as a tool to get better skiing. One of those things that makes you go Hmmmmmm?

The few times that I've seen skiers access the North Fork of the Teanaway by sled, they park their sleds in the bottom of Esmerelda Basin and skin up over Ingalls Pass into Headlight Basin. Or they sled to the end of the Fish Lake Road and skin up Scatter or Paddy-Go-Easy. You won't see many fan-cooled 2-up sleds making the climb to Ingalls or Longs (or over Navaho into Stafford).

Not saying it couldn't happen, but we're sticking our heads in the sand, here.

 

[jer]

why don't we all just keep it simple...............the wilderness is off limits so stay out.i just don't understand why a small minority of people have to threaten everyone's right to ride and we do need to "police"our selves

jer

 

[harf69]

one of the biggest things that i believe can help splve the problem is signs ive been riding in wa for 10+ years and some places im not sure where the boundries are put up signs at the snopark and up at a common access area go to baker i cant get a straight anwser where the boundries are so for all you people that know you might want to tell the ranger because he was not sure.jmho

 

[2Thetopp]

The best thing that we can do is clean up the garbage at the end of the season that was left (by a few irresponsible riders). Hang as many signs as the FS will provide us at the boundries, so there is no excuse for tresspass, (by a few irresponsible riders). We need to police ourselves and let it be known that anything that effects our sport negatively won't be tolerated, especially by one of our own. We need to repair our image that people are getting of snowmobilers (because of the action of a few),by some positive action on our part, hopefully we can fix this before we lose anything more.

 

[rmk2112]

Lake Cle Elum & JETJOHNSO's threads were merged into 1 and stickied. They both posted the same info within minutes of each other...Great minds think alike

Will someone post Tim's email here or PM it to me. I'd like to get on his email list, so I can be in the know.
The more of us that get involved, the more of us that try to help the USFS, the more they will know that, as a group, we care about the Wilderness and the few that don't care, don't represent how the majority feel.

 

[Lake Cle Elum]

Tim's message is posted here, if you PM me your email address, I'll forward his email and then you will have all the email addresses he sent this to.......Thanks........

Lake Cle Elum & JETJOHNSO's threads were merged into 1 and stickied. They both posted the same info within minutes of each other...Great minds think alike

Will someone post Tim's email here or PM it to me. I'd like to get on his email list, so I can be in the know.
The more of us that get involved, the more of us that try to help the USFS, the more they will know that, as a group, we care about the Wilderness and the few that don't care, don't represent how the majority feel.

 

[hurleyboarder21]

Tim is a good guy.. very fair

Some of us may remember a lake ann cleanup we did with the jeep club . it was Tim that was there with us.

Tim knows myself..my folks . my kids.. he is very much on our side .... if we GIVE him the opportunity . There is only so much he can do when we paint ourselves into a corner! Right now the way that it is......... the squeeky hinge gets the oil.

stay out or get ready to be locked out.
THAT is the reality

 

[SLED2SHRED]

Its time for a Washington avalanche and wilderness awareness program. The amount of new riders to the sport is growing, especially backcountry skiers and boarders. There needs to be information given with registrations and more signage posted in snowparks that border the wilderness. Its good to hear that states like Idaho have taken steps to insure AWARENESS by posting signs.

 

[Wapow]

Hey Trout, thanks for telling it like it is! You're very likely talking about me and my crew, because the spots you mentioned are where we go practically every weekend (Van Epps Peak, Esmereldas, Stuart, Harding, Fish Eagle/Solomon, Paddy Go Easy, etc.) and I've never seen any other skiers out there, ever. We started out as skiers who bought sleds to get access to great terrain, but eventually found the love for sledding as well. For the record, nobody I know has ever called the FS or any other cops on any sledders poaching the wilderness (despite the fact that we see it all the time). And, let me clear up any misconceptions about skiers in snomo accessed backcountry. When we go snomo skiing, we're using our sleds for access, not as a replacement for a chair lift. Why would we, when every foot we gain by skinning results in pow turns on the way down? Only fatties and snowboarders use the two-up option. It won't work on steep slope anyways, so why bother? Snomo skiing is about getting access to sick descent lines. Skiers and sledders are attracted to the same terrain, only going in opposite directions for their thrills. So, those of you suggesting that skiers are part of the poaching problem anywhere around the Alpine Lakes Wilderness need to pull your head out and look in the mirror. Quit blaming the messenger for a problem that is 100% caused by those in our own community. Way more skiers and split boarders will be accessing the same terrain as us sledders in the coming years, it's just a matter of time. Poaching wilderness as a consistent practice is doomed.

 

[Carbon77]

As a New snowmobiler (and a fairly experienced backcountry skier) I know how to look at maps and trail routes no problem, but I'm worried about going Into the wilderness without knowing it. I like to go on sled trips and find places to ski, but I don't carry a GPS with me to see if I'm sledding into the wilderness.

If their were signs or some other way of knowing where the boundaries besides undetailed maps then I would park my sled there and skin the rest of the way.

Now the people that know where they are and take complete advantage of it, need to DIAF.

 

[mc2stroke]

Well I believe MOST people are good and try to follow the rules, no matter what sport they choose to be involved in. I also, believe that sometime mistakes are made by people unknowingly. Yes, I understand that ignorance is know excuse (not knowing where you are at or where your wilderness boundaries are at), but that being said, I still feel it does happen.

I for one am more then willing to post signage or assist in trying to mark the wilderness boundaries so they are more obvious in the winter and summer months. We definitely seem to lack the signage for our wilderness boundaries here in washington In my humble opinion. Education is good too, but other then tearing someone a new A**hole after the fact I'm not sure how to do that…

Anyways, I am open to suggestions and ideas and would volunteer some of my time to help posting signs or whatever as long as it is approved by the Forest Service.

MC out~