Another Fix? Swaintech coated pistons

[2XM3]

My friends 860 great power zero issues..remember 860 has nice separate insanely stout jugs custom made.

you know I'm starting to think the best think one can do is just build a nice ported carbed BB 800, get a pipe and plate from brad and bolt it in, zero issues 175 hp,premix...done deal

On another side note the only reason to use a short rod ratio is when a motor has a very big intake port area (ie pro stock) the short rod violent movement and "jerk" at tdc-bdc will in fact get the air moving much quicker through the port while the engine is moving up in rpm, yes the peak power will suffer as the rod will not "dwell" as long at TDC but in a drag engine we will trade off this for more rapid air movement while running the huge port. AND the fact that i'll take the motor apart every 20 runs or so and freshin it up. It has been found that in a pumping cycle of a engine if you run big port and 1"+ valve lift it will in fact injest a bigger "chunk" of air with a short rod ratio. But of course downside is very short life of rings,bore and ringseal issues. The friction is reduced by the use of a very short skirt piston, think "pancake on a stick" lol again, only has to last a weekend before rebuild.


Gut feeling is dumb engineers tried to make motor as light as possible and more compact and just plain old screwed the pooch bigtime

 

[modjunkie]

2xm3 and angermanagement 890, Thanks for the awesome posts. I have learned more about building engines since i bought one of these pieces of crap than all the other sleds i've owned combined. Just wish this thread had started before i put "the fix" on. I would have measured more stuff when i had it apart. I think i have one of the few good 09 cylinders becuase i have not stuck a piston or broke a skirt in 1500 miles. Only have about a hundred miles on the fix, but it diffently made it a different engine.

 

[2XM3]

yup the only good thing about the whole deal is so many have now learned about there motor and...............

Well the pukeing part sucks

 

[diamonddave]

There's no doubt the 860's run.

 

[diamonddave]

My friends 860 great power zero issues..remember 860 has nice separate insanely stout jugs custom made.

you know I'm starting to think the best think one can do is just build a nice ported carbed BB 800, get a pipe and plate from brad and bolt it in, zero issues 175 hp,premix...done deal

On another side note the only reason to use a short rod ratio is when a motor has a very big intake port area (ie pro stock) the short rod violent movement and "jerk" at tdc-bdc will in fact get the air moving much quicker through the port while the engine is moving up in rpm, yes the peak power will suffer as the rod will not "dwell" as long at TDC but in a drag engine we will trade off this for more rapid air movement while running the huge port. AND the fact that i'll take the motor apart every 20 runs or so and freshin it up. It has been found that in a pumping cycle of a engine if you run big port and 1"+ valve lift it will in fact injest a bigger "chunk" of air with a short rod ratio. But of course downside is very short life of rings,bore and ringseal issues. The friction is reduced by the use of a very short skirt piston, think "pancake on a stick" lol again, only has to last a weekend before rebuild.


Gut feeling is dumb engineers tried to make motor as light as possible and more compact and just plain old screwed the pooch bigtime

We have to remember this motor derived from the 440/600 lower end/Crank assy. Polaris then threw 700 jugs at it in 07 and an 800 mono at it in 08 with limited production. So based on it being an 800 on a 440/600 lower end, it was bound to have flaws. Polaris took a huge hit in not having anything larger than the 700 in 07 so instead of designing a real 800 from the bottom up, they rushed it by doing nothing more than a bigbore 800 on a 440/600.


Another issue I think part of the distortion in the cylinders some are finding is due to the lack of coolant around the exhaust ports. There just isn't enough volume. Take in the inherit Cold Shot that occurrs and it gets even worse. I think based on these definicies and other variables ie poor fuel, Polaris feels they have to run these motors on the loose side. Even the 6's and 7's are on the loose side. This is probably where a modified single ring piston would help. Instead of the 2nd ring transferring more of the heat into the cylinder, allow some of it to stay in the piston. Not saying this is the correct way to fix this issue of cylinder distorting, but could help as another band aid in an otherwise not desgined for the application motor.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I built both for mud racing, sure liked the long rod big block..thing was an animal...the short rod/long stroker was just nasty...crappy on rings,skirts, even bearings..ran that one 1/2 a season and yanked it for the long rod motor...that is by far the best motor I have ever had the pleasure of running..big power/big rpm's/easy to tune, and just a permagrin....

 

[550iq]

Great read guys. Connecting rod length relationships with wrist pin locations. Dynamic piston forces. Crankshaft imbalance. How can it get any better. Reminded me of Kevin Cameron's writings in Cycle World.

 

[guidoxpress]

ill be doing the Swains Tech Coatings on my Carls Cycle 975 Big bore this summer no doubt...ive heard TONZ of great things about their work, and never a negative..

this is a must on Big bores and Turbo Apps IMO, and even stockers that want some Ins...especially when using Weisco Pistons that expand/retract so much!

My $.02

 

[Angermangement890]

more thoughts

So as I am sitting here thinking about the engine issues and how best to correct them in a cost effective manner. There are a few differnt things I have done on past engines that improved reliability and were cost effective to implement that are easily implemented on these CFI engines.

1. Cyrogenically treating components, I won't get all detailed as there is plenty of info in the below links, basically you are reducing the stress present in the part through realignment of the grain structure of the part. Bottom line, the parts last longer, distort less and make more power.

I would treat the cylinder, pistons, rods, crank wheels and the brass oil pump gear.

Some places that do cyro treating:
http://www.cartercryo.com/cryogenic-engines.html

http://www.nwcryo.com/motorsports.html

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/racing.html

In addition to the cyro treating,

2. Calico coatings, they like swaintech offer skirt coatings, but also coat many other parts for increased durability. I would see if they could coat the intergrated rod pin with CT-1 which is used on main bearings, CT-2 for a TBC on pistons tops, CT-3 for the piston skirts and use the CT-5 as an oil shedder on crank lobes and rod beams, which should help oil/fuel get to the bearings rather than hang on the rod beam/lobe and help it get to the areas the air/fuel is needed for lubrication.

http://www.calicocoatings.com/industries/coating-solutions/automotive-racing/

Swain tech may do similar coatings, but I have used calico for my last 3 car engines and been very happy with their work. I would use either company if they had the coatings I needed.


I understand this may be WAY further than many want to take their engines, but if you have to fix an engine that is out of warranty, I would take as many precautions to ensure I didn't have another failure on that engine. A little more $$ out of pocket initially to get some more insurance would not be a bad idea.

 

[2XM3]

ttt

 

[2blade]

I have a dumb question! All of the above brilliance and no one has said a single thing about the ****ty factory fasteners. Why spend all of the cash on coatings and clearances and use fasteners from a hardware store. Please check out ARP fasteners. I have built many motors and the factory fasteners always go in the garbage.

 

[Angermangement890]

I have a dumb question! All of the above brilliance and no one has said a single thing about the ****ty factory fasteners. Why spend all of the cash on coatings and clearances and use fasteners from a hardware store. Please check out ARP fasteners. I have built many motors and the factory fasteners always go in the garbage.

If the factory fasteners were of poor quality, the engine would be having base gasket and head sealing issues. The stock fasteners are a grade 10.9 quality which is a very good fastener. The ARP bolts are going to cost significantly more, but I do not see a huge performance advantage to them.

One area I have gone to studs is the heads, if your cylinders have been reniked a few times the bolt holes shrink and lose some of the threads due to the acid used to strip the cyls for plating.

 

[2XM3]

I have a dumb question! All of the above brilliance and no one has said a single thing about the ****ty factory fasteners. Why spend all of the cash on coatings and clearances and use fasteners from a hardware store. Please check out ARP fasteners. I have built many motors and the factory fasteners always go in the garbage.

not a issue with these motors like on a auto application. figure ya can run 15 psi boost with no sealing issues at all.