seizures?

Cat Bandit · Nov 18, 2011

So guys, I'm going to be taking delivery on my 800 snopro this weekend, and I'm curious how many peeps have had a seized engine, and if any of those people have gotten a cause for failure? I've heard bubbles in oil lines, debris in the intake, and bubbles in the coolant, and one thing I've read less about here is the ethanol fuel... I can't see an engine going down in less than a mile unless there is something mechanically wrong. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience, if a two stroke runs longer than fifteen minutes, it'll be ok. I'm not the all knowing two stroke guy, but its not rocket science... Just going over the said causes in my head, if there was a bubble in an oil line, isn't that what the oil in the fuel is for? Debris in an intake is a for sure failure... An airlock in the cooling is bad, but less than a mile, and no temp light? Something is kinda fishy, and it would be sweet to get some answers. I know my dealer has a really good reputation, but I'm gonna look everything over I can just to avoid the headache. It's got to be something simple, because there's not much too complicated with these engines. It sucks, because I'm kinda scared to ride it until there are some answers.

Arctic Thunder · Nov 18, 2011

I am only going to say this one last time.

If you or your freaking dealer doesn't heat cycle the pistons you run a risk of sticking the pistons in the cylinders.

Read this and it will explain the process of annealing.

http://www.keytometals.com/Article139.htm

"Recovery annealing is also accompanied by changes in other properties of cold worked aluminum. Generally, some property change can be detected at temperatures as low as 200 to 250°F (90°C to 120°C); the change increases in magnitude with increasing temperature. Complete recovery from the effects of cold working is obtained only with recrystallization."

"The distorted, dislocated structure resulting from cold working of aluminum is less stable than the strain-free, annealed state, to which it tends to revert. In zone-refined aluminum, this reversion may take place at room temperature. Lower-purity aluminum and commercial aluminum alloys undergo these structural changes only with annealing at elevated temperatures. Accompanying the structural reversion are changes in the various properties affected by cold working. These changes occur in several stages, according to temperature or time, and have led to the concept of different annealing mechanisms or processes."

This is why the pistons stick in the cylinders. AC doens't put these pistons and cylinders through this process prior to shipping.

After aluminum goes through a heat cycle it will hold it's shape and will expand at a different rate. If you have worked with aluminum much you can take a sheet of aluminum and attempt to bend it without breaking it. But if you preheat it then put the bend in it will bend easily and then hold shape. These large bore pistons with tight tolerances need to be heat cycled so they don't grow to fast and stick. The heat from the combustion chamber will expand the dome of the piston faster then the cylinder and it will stick.

I don't doubt their are some oiling problems ect.

But if had a new machine, or when I replace a top end this heat cycle procedure would be done every single time.

Thunder

Cat Bandit · Nov 18, 2011

Arctic Thunder said:
I am only going to say this one last time.

If you or your freaking dealer doesn't heat cycle the pistons you run a risk of sticking the pistons in the cylinders.

Read this and it will explain the process of annealing.

http://www.keytometals.com/Article139.htm

"Recovery annealing is also accompanied by changes in other properties of cold worked aluminum. Generally, some property change can be detected at temperatures as low as 200 to 250°F (90°C to 120°C); the change increases in magnitude with increasing temperature. Complete recovery from the effects of cold working is obtained only with recrystallization."

"The distorted, dislocated structure resulting from cold working of aluminum is less stable than the strain-free, annealed state, to which it tends to revert. In zone-refined aluminum, this reversion may take place at room temperature. Lower-purity aluminum and commercial aluminum alloys undergo these structural changes only with annealing at elevated temperatures. Accompanying the structural reversion are changes in the various properties affected by cold working. These changes occur in several stages, according to temperature or time, and have led to the concept of different annealing mechanisms or processes."

This is why the pistons stick in the cylinders. AC doens't put these pistons and cylinders through this process prior to shipping.

aluminum goes through a heat cycle it will hold it's shape and will expand at a different rate. If you have worked with aluminum much you can take a sheet of aluminum and attempt to bend it without breaking it. But if you preheat it then put the bend in it will bend easily and then hold shape. These large bore pistons with tight tolerances need to be heat cycled so they don't grow to fast and stick. The heat from the combustion chamber will expand the dome of the piston faster then the cylinder and it will stick.

I don't doubt their are some oiling problems ect.

But if had a new machine, or when I replace a top end this heat cycle procedure would be done every single time.

Thunder

Thanks for the science lesson... I understand the reasoning behind heat cycling, you didn't have to go all bill nye on me... So what I'm getting from this is that we're hearing about inept, or just plain lazy cat dealers that are not properly prepping sleds before the customers get them. What a load of crap man!

AKSNOWRIDER · Nov 18, 2011

I doubt cat (or any manufacturer ) doesnt fire these up before they get crated..I know for a fact polaris does...no this is a different issue, and i would take coolant off your list..any motor will run quite a while with zero coolant in it..even a fresh motor..soething in the intake..good possibility..but most likely..oil not getting into the motor..quickest thing to lock one up...

Cat Bandit · Nov 18, 2011

AKSNOWRIDER said:
I doubt cat (or any manufacturer ) doesnt fire these up before they get crated..I know for a fact polaris does...no this is a different issue, and i would take coolant off your list..any motor will run quite a while with zero coolant in it..even a fresh motor..soething in the intake..good possibility..but most likely..oil not getting into the motor..quickest thing to lock one up...

Don't they use assembly lube from the factory?

FastM8 · Nov 18, 2011

IMO.. I wouldn't be too worried about the engine failures that have been reported. First if you bought your sled from a good dealer, they will do what they can to make things right if something happens. I know mine would have me out in running again in no time. Second, you have to remember that this engine to going on its third year in production, The last two years this engine has ran great.

Arctic Thunder · Nov 18, 2011

Cat Bandit said:
Thanks for the science lesson... I understand the reasoning behind heat cycling, you didn't have to go all bill nye on me... So what I'm getting from this is that we're hearing about inept, or just plain lazy cat dealers that are not properly prepping sleds before the customers get them. What a load of crap man!

I think you are right on the properly prepping sleds. But in the dealers defence they are probably doing exactly what cat has told them. Put the skies on, mount the bars, tighten the track, add 1 gallon of gas and oil. Deliver to customer, deal done.

Wait until we have a bunch more new sleds with stuck pistons and Cat will come out with another service bulletin telling all the dealers to properly prep the sleds. Just like they did with the HCR's a couple years ago that kept sticking pistons.

Thunder

AKSNOWRIDER · Nov 18, 2011

not that i have seen, polaris sleds come loaded with oil... when you first fire them they smoke to crazy for about 15 minutes....

Going West · Nov 18, 2011

AKSNOWRIDER said:
I doubt cat (or any manufacturer ) doesnt fire these up before they get crated..I know for a fact polaris does...no this is a different issue, and i would take coolant off your list..any motor will run quite a while with zero coolant in it..even a fresh motor..soething in the intake..good possibility..but most likely..oil not getting into the motor..quickest thing to lock one up...

The coolant issue is not from over heating. What happens when you have a air lock is the coolant does not circulate and the motor gets up to temp. Then the air lock lets loose and the ice cold water slams into the cylinder and shrinks it around the piston causing the seize. Usually happens at around a mile or 2. Same thing will happen if you have a sticky thermostat.

And as far as heat cycling a motor goes, I have never, and I mean never heat cycled any motor and never had a failure. These are the same motors as the last two years and I'm sure the dealers are doing the same thing they have the previous years and you never had any issues then. My bet is bad parts or Cooling related.

Cat Bandit · Nov 18, 2011

Arctic Thunder said:
I think you are right on the properly prepping sleds. But in the dealers defence they are probably doing exactly what cat has told them. Put the skies on, mount the bars, tighten the track, add 1 gallon of gas and oil. Deliver to customer, deal done.

Wait until we have a bunch more new sleds with stuck pistons and Cat will come out with another service bulletin telling all the dealers to properly prep the sleds. Just like they did with the HCR's a couple years ago that kept sticking pistons.

Thunder

Yeah, I guess that you'd think they would bleed the oiler, check all the fluids, fire it, and let it warm up... But then, making like five hundo off a sled, they probably really want to not spend time checking stuff that should be taken care of at the factory...the thing that sucks is that five guys blow their new sleds up, and now there is a scare running across the forums like every one will blow. But as a percentage of how many they put out has got to be tiny! Just like the pro engine, I've heard from so many people that its junk, but I'm sure there the problems are minuscule as well...

CATSLEDMAN1 · Nov 18, 2011

sled prep

If you want the sled to live........a better life and give better performance:

make sure you have full coolant in tank, full oil tank, oil in the gas 60:1

start your new sled and let it idle for 3 minutes and let it cool.

lift the front of the sled and check coolant, this should burp some air

idle sled until you can feel some heat in the back cooler, shut if off, let cool

check coolant, reburp if unsure by raising front of sled and fire for a minute

thoroughly wash front and rear clutchs with hot soapy water

scrub two new belts with 3m pad and hot soapy water, reinstall

start sled let idle until you can feel heat in rear heat exchanger and then let engine cool until engine is cold to the touch, repeat 10 times.

put spare belt wraped in seranwrap back in sled

first ride, idle until warm in real heat excahnger and check coolant

idle down trail 1 mile, let cool, check coolant

idle around for 50 miles checking clutch's and coolant

Dealers can't do this, most rider don't have the patience. Showroom on sat morning directly to cold snow and a WOT blast right off the trailer isn't even gambling its just plain, well mainly sad. Sum get lucky, fools game.

Until further notice , CAT POLARIS SKI DOO YAMAHA ALL THE BIKE COMPANIES sell a crate full of mostly the right parts to have a lot of fun.
After that, dealers and buyers are on their own. Paid a premium price at a really good dealer for a thoroughly prepped sled to go right to the snow......go for it. Shopped around for the rock bottom lowest price bare bones deal........best to follow instructions.

diggerdown · Nov 18, 2011

CATSLEDMAN1 said:
If you want the sled to live........a better life and give better performance:

make sure you have full coolant in tank, full oil tank, oil in the gas 60:1

start your new sled and let it idle for 3 minutes and let it cool.

lift the front of the sled and check coolant, this should burp some air

idle sled until you can feel some heat in the back cooler, shut if off, let cool

check coolant, reburp if unsure by raising front of sled and fire for a minute

thoroughly wash front and rear clutchs with hot soapy water

scrub two new belts with 3m pad and hot soapy water, reinstall

start sled let idle until you can feel heat in rear heat exchanger and then let engine cool until engine is cold to the touch, repeat 10 times.

put spare belt wraped in seranwrap back in sled

first ride, idle until warm in real heat excahnger and check coolant

idle down trail 1 mile, let cool, check coolant

idle around for 50 miles checking clutch's and coolant

Dealers can't do this, most rider don't have the patience. Showroom on sat morning directly to cold snow and a WOT blast right off the trailer isn't even gambling its just plain, well mainly sad. Sum get lucky, fools game.

Until further notice , CAT POLARIS SKI DOO YAMAHA ALL THE BIKE COMPANIES sell a crate full of mostly the right parts to have a lot of fun.
After that, dealers and buyers are on their own. Paid a premium price at a really good dealer for a thoroughly prepped sled to go right to the snow......go for it. Shopped around for the rock bottom lowest price bare bones deal........best to follow instructions.

X2. The customer has to take some responsibily for break in and checking everything over. I've had sleds I've had to add coolant to 3 times with a mile or two ride in between and over night cool down periods. Heavy on the pre mix and you will eliminate 95% of early failures. There are always a few that something is just not right on, but they are rare.

snowmobiler · Nov 18, 2011

ill guess to lean from factory.fuel injection blows if its to lean.cant jet fatter.if i bought one i would ride her hard.

SSWIM · Nov 18, 2011

Arctic Thunder said:
I am only going to say this one last time.

If you or your freaking dealer doesn't heat cycle the pistons you run a risk of sticking the pistons in the cylinders.

Read this and it will explain the process of annealing.

http://www.keytometals.com/Article139.htm

"Recovery annealing is also accompanied by changes in other properties of cold worked aluminum. Generally, some property change can be detected at temperatures as low as 200 to 250°F (90°C to 120°C); the change increases in magnitude with increasing temperature. Complete recovery from the effects of cold working is obtained only with recrystallization."

"The distorted, dislocated structure resulting from cold working of aluminum is less stable than the strain-free, annealed state, to which it tends to revert. In zone-refined aluminum, this reversion may take place at room temperature. Lower-purity aluminum and commercial aluminum alloys undergo these structural changes only with annealing at elevated temperatures. Accompanying the structural reversion are changes in the various properties affected by cold working. These changes occur in several stages, according to temperature or time, and have led to the concept of different annealing mechanisms or processes."

This is why the pistons stick in the cylinders. AC doens't put these pistons and cylinders through this process prior to shipping.

After aluminum goes through a heat cycle it will hold it's shape and will expand at a different rate. If you have worked with aluminum much you can take a sheet of aluminum and attempt to bend it without breaking it. But if you preheat it then put the bend in it will bend easily and then hold shape. These large bore pistons with tight tolerances need to be heat cycled so they don't grow to fast and stick. The heat from the combustion chamber will expand the dome of the piston faster then the cylinder and it will stick.

I don't doubt their are some oiling problems ect.

But if had a new machine, or when I replace a top end this heat cycle procedure would be done every single time.

Thunder

No bash here. But HOGWASH. Sure heat cycling is good practice. But to state an improper break in caused a failure at .8 of a mile is ridiculous. Again, no bash, and I am not stating a heat cyle break in is bad. This is not a Cutler 1150. Ya, I know about those. I have had a couple. I did not even break those in according to Dale. Still had no problem.

Again, no bash. Just an observation from running a couple hundred or so two strokes.

Sam

Bendy · Nov 18, 2011

Seized!

My friends 800 seized while he was loading it at the dealer! He didn't even get it home.

cascadesnowjunky · Nov 18, 2011

Geeze guys give the dealers some credit here. If it was dealer related it would have been happening for years. Does everyone think that dealers are all the sudden not doing what they always have in the past. There is definately something going on but I doubt very seriously its the dealer or the sled owners fault. Time will tell, hope its nothing major.

Schmeg · Nov 18, 2011

Heat cycling is more appropriate when using forged slugs because they are thermally unstable for several cycles, which we already got the lesson on the reasoning behind it. With cast pistons, and modern boring and honing techniques, heat cycling isn't needed. In fact when heat cycling, you aren't putting any load on the rings which needs to be done for a good break in. I've broke them in easy and hard, and never had bad results. Just don't be stupid and not warm the sled up first, or go WOT for long periods. I agree it is a good practice to burp the cooling system, and bleed the oiling system, and run pre-mix for a tank or so. Squeaking a motor in such a short period of time is either internal issues, or lack of oil. Period.

turbolq4 · Nov 18, 2011

1-pull rope
2-don safety equipment
3-push throttle to the bar

mynewuseddoo · Nov 18, 2011

Cat Bandit said:
So guys, I'm going to be taking delivery on my 800 snopro this weekend, and I'm curious how many peeps have had a seized engine, and if any of those people have gotten a cause for failure? I've heard bubbles in oil lines, debris in the intake, and bubbles in the coolant, and one thing I've read less about here is the ethanol fuel... I can't see an engine going down in less than a mile unless there is something mechanically wrong. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience, if a two stroke runs longer than fifteen minutes, it'll be ok. I'm not the all knowing two stroke guy, but its not rocket science... Just going over the said causes in my head, if there was a bubble in an oil line, isn't that what the oil in the fuel is for? Debris in an intake is a for sure failure... An airlock in the cooling is bad, but less than a mile, and no temp light? Something is kinda fishy, and it would be sweet to get some answers. I know my dealer has a really good reputation, but I'm gonna look everything over I can just to avoid the headache. It's got to be something simple, because there's not much too complicated with these engines. It sucks, because I'm kinda scared to ride it until there are some answers.

They are all going to seize this year. The radiation in Japan change the molecular properties of the aluminum.

i'llDooit · Nov 18, 2011

turbos dont work good on a seized motor

seizures?

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