FYI.... PRO RMK HOLZ WALKER-EVANS SHOCK VALVING UPGRADE PROGRAM DETAILS

mountainhorse · Sep 3, 2011

Please... lets keep this thread on topic. This is not a place to bash on the WE shock... nor talk about other aftermarket offerings.. this is a "FYI" thread on a particular product. If you want to speak about the virtues of another option, please do so in another thread. Thanks in advance.

NOTE: There were some objections to my previous thread by some members.. so I cleaned it up and reposted it here after taking their suggestions to heart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I spoke with Matt Rohrbach of Holz Racing Products (HRP) today about the shock upgrade options that they offer.

The Waker Evans coil over shock installed on the 2011/2012 Polaris RMK and Assault is a very high quality, monotube IFP shock.

Walker Evans Racing has been worked with Polaris engineers on this package for a long time, drawing on an excellent working relationship with Polaris industries over the years in the racing program and the development of the ProRide RUSH skid.

The shocks on PRO RMK and Assaults are, as many of you know, a rebuild-able fully serviceable unit.

Polaris engineers worked very hard to get the package dialed in for most riders with a broad average that can be serviced with some simple adjustments that can be made by the consumer.

With that said though... If you rest outside of the Norm or are very aggressive rider or a significantly heavier or lighter rider than the "average" that this suspension is set for... getting the shocks tailored is like getting the right sized shoe....It takes this already great package to a different level.

Mark Holz has been working with Randy Anderson, the lead shock engineer and co-owner of Walker Evans racing, for a while now... pulling off some of the best suspension upgrades in the UTV market. Randy is the same engineer that has been working closely with the factory Polaris engineers on the OEM shocks for this sled.

When the PRO RMK was offered with the Walker Evans shock package from the factory... it was natural that Mark would have to "tinker" with these shocks... He found that by working with the valving package and coming up with some great upgrades that he could provide even more performance than was offered as stock...without "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"

Here are some details on the upgrades for the Walker Evans IFP shocks, that come stock on your RMK, that they offer.

These upgrades will improve the ride and offer all the performance that you will need for 95% of the hard core RMK users that find the performance of their stock shocks lacking.

CUTAWAY IMAGE OF THE POLARIS PRO RMK SHOCKS AS INSTALLED ON YOUR 2011/12 RMK

WalkerEvansRacing.com Randy Anderson is the general manager and part owner of Walker Evans Racing and has been an integral part of the team's success for the past 24 years. Randy began working after school at Walker Evans Racing on April Fool's Day, April 1 1978. He quickly progressed from parts cleaner to mechanic to fabricator under the supervision of long time Off-road crew chief Danny Shields.

At the start of the SCORE off-road season in 1980 Randy became the Evans personal crew chief at the young age of 19 years old and has been in charge ever since. Over the course of Randy's career the Walker Evans Racing Team has amassed 30 championship titles and over 197 race wins.

Randy has designed and implemented the building of 64 Off-road race vehicles, 15 NASCAR race vehicles and 3 Rock Crawling trucks, along with the development of engines and suspension systems for each of these programs. Suspension has always been one of Randy's passions. In Off-road racing if you want to win the race you have to get over the rough terrain faster than the next guy.

Randy's tremendous suspension building experience has been the foundation for the development of new suspension systems for Rock Crawling, Snowmobiles and ATV's. Look for more innovative products to come!

.

mountainhorse · Sep 3, 2011

The first option in the HRP program is to have Holz Racing Products (HRP) custom revalve the shocks for you.

This applies to the Std Monotube IFP shocks on the 2011/12 PRO RMK and the Clicker-Reservoir shocks on the 2011/12Assault and SB.

A "revalve" is where a shock service center takes into account all the factors of the rider, machine and conditions.. like rider weight, sled size, snow conditions, type of terrain... and changes the characteristics of the shock by changing the valve shims and sometimes the piston. (#18 in the pic above)

This allows the shock to compress or rebound through terrain cycles at a rate that is refined around the riders needs and situation.

If you are an aggressive rider, that bashes through square edged whoops you may want a stiffer spring preload or even a spring that will give you the feel that you want... If you are a lighter rider... this may turn the sled into a pogo stick if the rebound rate is too fast...that is where changing the rebound valving is critical... too much and it does not return quick enough and "packs out" after a few bumps leaving the suspension compressed and unable to absorb the next bump ... too little and it will "pogo" and buck you off. A heavy rider with a lot of preload may also feel the need, conversely, to increase the rebound speed.

The same is true for compression side damping...If you can control the rate of compression for a given condition without making the shock too harsh or too soft.. then you have a great shock on your hands... This is where a "custom fit" really pays off.

"One size fits all", On the stock WE shocks in the PRO RMK... amazingly good for a stock sled...especially with the adjustmets available in preload. But a "Tailored fit" will take it to the next level.

For the most part, on a snowmobile even on warm harpack days, the shocks are snow/ice cooled and are not as susceptible to shock-fade for most of the riders out there...Realizing thermal fade on a shock on a sled is something that only ISOC racers will realize...Fade rarely comes into play for most MOUNTAIN/BACKCOUNTRY riders.

In this situation, a simple revalve or spring change can do you very well.

Holz, with their tight relationship with Walker is able to do this work for a very small charge IMO.

Holz does not sell the springs... but they can tailor your shock to the spring of your choosing.

For the Revalve program... HRP charges $79 per shock, or $316 for all four shocks... This includes the basic service with new fluid and nitrogen recharge.

If you have some damage to your shock... They can take care of that at the same time.

If you have plenty of miles on your 2011 already...this service takes care of what will need to be serviced anyway.

mountainhorse · Sep 3, 2011

In this same HRP program... For those of you that are more aggressive riders yet... HRP can offer another option...
The addition of remote "clicker" reservoirs on the shocks that will give you On-the-Fly adjustability to the compression settings on the shock... Essentially giving you the Assault shock package without the need to be tied to the wider front a-arms of the Assault.

PLUS... you will again have a shock package that is TAILORED to your riding.

The rear track shock is a brand new Walker Evans Racing Piggyback reservior shock with clicker compression adjustment....For this shock, HRP and WE felt it best to provide the super tough 5/8" shaft that will take more abuse than the shaft on the stock rear track shock... This also has the side benefit of giving you more control over the oil flow in/out of the reservoir and compression adjuster... To upgrade the stock shock to this larger shaft would not be cost effefective for the customer which is why they offer this upgrade as a complete replacement...The cost is $350 for the shock (re-use your spring). This leaves you with the ability to sell your stock shock to a std. RMK owner with non-rebuildable shocks, to defer a good chunk of the cost.

On the ski and front track shocks HRP does a very cost effective valving upgrade with shock service and the addition of the clicker Piggyback reservoir for $179 each.

This will take your sled to the next level of performance that many of you Hard Core riders are looking for ... all on a reasonable budget.

For around $900 you can upgrade ALL 4 of your shocks to compression adjustable and have them custom tailored for YOU. Take off the value of selling your stock shock and you will be into them for the low $700's... A great value IMO.

NOTE: The springs that appear to be Titanium in the pix are not part of this program. HRP, in my interview with them, specifically said that they do not sell springs for the PRO RMK's.

Pic of the Front Ski Shock after the HRP Revalve and addition of the Piggyback reservoir.

Rear track shock with Piggyback reservoir.

.

gman086 · Sep 3, 2011

One thing tho... the reservoir upgrade is still just a standard shim stack shock. The Assault shocks use a "needle" that compensates for oil temp differences and gives optimal damping (oil flow) even when the oil heats up (but us non-racers will never notice, riiiight? Ha!). The upgrade doesn't include that as I understand it and would still be a compromise when comparing to Assault shocks. Anyone compare the two? Anyone selling Assault rear shocks?

Have FUN!

G MAN

ak49er · Sep 3, 2011

" Take off the value of selling your stock shock and you will be into them for the low $700's... A great value IMO."

This doesn't make sense to me, how would you sell your stock shock and have it upgraded at the same time?

tdorval · Sep 3, 2011

The rear track shock is completely replaced the way I'm reading it, so you will be selling the rear track shock for $200 is what he is getting at. I missed it the first time I read it as well though.

mountainhorse · Sep 3, 2011

Gman...Good point...The HRP valving and Piggy back upgrades do not have the the needles (#23) added to them.

From what I'm told by HRP in my interview, the HRP replacement rear-track-shock upgrade does have has this needle feature.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of the "needle" function in the shock.... I didn't understand at first look either... but John at WE Racing took the time to walk me through its function.

The needle in a WE Needle is an end-of-travel supplemental damper... much in the way a jonce bumper is.. but this is a "metered hydraulic jonce bumper" ...of sorts.

Have a look at the Assault vid (CLICKY) in this thread.

The needle does not play a role in controlling flow into or out of the Piggyback resi. It only comes into the play in the last 3rd or so of the shocks travel.

The needle size and taper progression are factors of tuning this shock. Without the needle, the shock is "valved" differently than with it. This is similar to other "resi" shocks. ... but, yes... different than the Assault front track and Ski shocks.

As a side note... the 600 Racers run this style of shock without the needle...they are valved for that.

In most (non racing) sledding, the resi plays a role in fluid control only.

On the piggyback reservoir upgrades, as with all the Walker Evans piggyback shocks, The "clicker" actually sets the pre-load on secondary valve shims (#33 & 35) that control the in/out flow rate of the fluid through the reservoir.

We should start up a new thread... a good discussion of "Thermal Fade in Mountain Sled shock absorbers". It is a term thrown around often and something that deserves its own thread... General would be a great place for that discussion.

diamonddave · Sep 3, 2011

ak49er said:
" Take off the value of selling your stock shock and you will be into them for the low $700's... A great value IMO."

This doesn't make sense to me, how would you sell your stock shock and have it upgraded at the same time?

Because it's a completely different shock they are selling you. The only thing that is used from your original shock is the spring.

Wow, talk about shooting the messenger

. We get it already. I think this is 1 more option for the 10-20% of the riders who are aggresive and actually ride. The Stock shocks are excellent for the remaining 80% who THINK they ride hard but are simply glorified trail riders.

If Polaris set up the suspension to please these 10-20% hard riders, then the remaining 80% of people who think they are hard riders, would be pissed, complain on forums, and sales would plummet.

gman086 · Sep 4, 2011

Good to know about the Holz rear shock being a needle shock. Looks like I'm going that direction now as I just sold a bike frame that will pay for it, YAY! The rear shock really REALLY is the weak link in the system if you ask me. I can't believe even "average" riders would be happy with it as it bottoms over anything bigger than 3-4 feet. Maybe I blew mine out? And yeah, I know how to adjust the preload.

Cheers,

G

PS - Here's some really kewl new technology using shock needles to prevent fade for those interested in what's coming to the world of air shocks: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/rockshox-vivid-first-ride.html

mountainhorse · Sep 18, 2011

Gman,

Did you take your shocks off and send them into Holz?

Pol600 · Sep 18, 2011

MH,

moved question to another

Devilmanak · Dec 7, 2012

So very old thread I know, I called them and they knew nothing aobut this package. Was it dropped in the last year or did the guy not know what he was talking about?

MOWER800 · Dec 7, 2012

holz?

Devilmanak said:
So very old thread I know, I called them and they knew nothing aobut this package. Was it dropped in the last year or did the guy not know what he was talking about?

you called Holz? I would say you talked to the wrong person cause I just had mine done last month. Call Holz and talk to Matt

Devilmanak · Dec 7, 2012

Gawd I am an idiot. I callede Zbroz, lol. All those short names look the samw when I am in a hurry. Thanks, I will try the right place.
You like yours?

mountainhorse · Dec 7, 2012

Yep.... Holz still does it... just re-confirmed... they offer revalves or re-valves with Piggyback upgrades for the ski and center shock... If you want to piggyback the rear track shock... they sell you a whole new shock.. more cost effective.

Devilmanak · Dec 7, 2012

Yah, I am a dummy. I called them and talked to Matt, sounds like a great deal. Thanks for the original post!

RMK935VA · Dec 7, 2012

FYI. Carl's in Boise also does a great revalve job on the WE shocks. I suspect that what Holz offers is very similar, if not identical, to what Holz does. They have more than one revalve package and they will work with you to get it right. I did it to my 11 Pro and I did it to my 13 Pro with the addition of rear shock spring that is better for my weight (235 lbs.). The valving makes a huge difference. The heavier weight spring also makes a big difference. Whether you go to HRP or Carl's is up to you. Either way, you are going to get a better riding and handling sled.

Devilmanak · Dec 7, 2012

I checked, Carl's is WAY too proud of their service. $550 to revalve a pair of shocks is way too much, even if they put Fox parts in them. Holz revalve WITHOUT reservoir is only $70 per shock. $170 with reservoir added. Total for all four shocks is under $1000, and that gets you 4x custom valved, compression adjustable shocks. (3x compression adjusters with piggybakcs added to my 3 shocks, and a brand new rear shock with adjuster/piggyback.)

Matte Murder · Dec 7, 2012

I did this last year on my 12. It was really nice to have the clickers on the front shocks. I ran them on 3-6 from full soft on the trail and in really deep heavy snow. In the fluff or less deep snow I ran them from 1-3 from full soft. A little more compression damping helps the pro turn and carve better. I never like the rear set up. Seems to sag about half the travel away then gets rock hard. In deep snow you don't notice it but in less than ideal conditions it sucked. My son rode the Pro right after we got this set up and his first comment was that "something is broken in the rear". I think a set of triple rate springs would have really helped but that would have put me at $1350. This year if I get to a point where I trust my 13 I will just buy the Raptors all around or get a Toms skid and Fox Evol Xs for the front. Again, I don't think the Holz piggy back option is bad but for another $600-700 you have a way better set up with the Raptors.

Devilmanak · Dec 7, 2012

Hmm, that is a little discouraging. I was about to pull the trigger. Did you ask them about the rear, see if it is supposed to be like that or if they screwed something up?

FYI.... PRO RMK HOLZ WALKER-EVANS SHOCK VALVING UPGRADE PROGRAM DETAILS

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Chilly’s Mentor

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads