Teanaway crest/ Alpine Lakes Wilderness Boundary

Greetings,

Just a heads-up from a snowmobile-riding backcountry skier.

For several years now several of us have been observing, photographing, documenting and reporting snowmobile trespass (and License numbers) into the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. To my knowledge increased USFS funding for Enforcement has occurred, and I am told by Officials that Citations have been issued. One specific area of interest for us backcountry skiers is the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Boundary along the Chelan County Line above Ingalls Creek to the north and the Teanaway to the south.

Just last week I skied Navaho Peak, Three Brothers Peak and Earl Peak on three separate days. From Navaho Peak into the NE bowl in the Wilderness we encountered snowmobile tracks, thankfully a few only, in the Wilderness. From the summit of Earl Peak, after a few hours' walking on skis with climbing skins up Bean Basin, from the summit we looked down on seven snowmobiles parked in Hardscrabble Creek in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness- one had the hood up.

Of course that area has great riding and spectacular scenery, and skiing, I have skied the area since the 1980s and before snowmobiles made it into the area. Please know the Wilderness Boundary, which is the crest of the ridge, the Alpine Lakes Wilderness to the north there in Chelan County is Closed to motorized use.

Thank you.

JETJOHNSO said:

Not jumping on anyones band wagon or "trashing" anyone believe me. but We know it's a select few riders refuse to obey the wilderness boundries, especially up in the Lake Ann and North Fork (Ingles lake) area. I for one USED TO ride in there all the time way back, Lake Ann is one of those area's on the FOREST SERVICE RADAR, It was even brought up to add into the Alpine lakes wilderness a few years back, The forest service had meetings in Cle Elum and North Bend just for this reason. It scares me because I know a select few wil ruin it for everyone. Yes there is some of the best riding in Washingtion in there but we must refrain from "temptation" Just my thougts. dont want to be trashed, just the facts,

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Thank you for that reply, you are very considerate. The truth is that when I ride my Ski Doo with skis strapped on, snowmobilers are nearly always kind and friendly. It is frustrating to walk for hours on skis and skins for Wilderness solitude then see tracks or snowmobiles. There is a lot of skier-angst about this, some on forums, skiers need to realize that snowmobilers are generally great folks who also enjoy mountains and powder!

newtrout said:

Thanks for your post, Randonnee. I appreciate the fact that you didn't come on here simply trying to stir up conflict and lump us all together. Your post was respectful.

Most of the snowmobilers that ride in the Wilderness seem to think that nobody notices and they will never be seen. I think it really helps to have people like you let snowmobilers know that they are being watched, and photographed. There was a similar situation recently in the Mt. Baker Wilderness near Excelsior, Welcome Pass/YAB. Hopefully a few of the violators will read messages like these and make a different choice next time.

That stretch in particular, between Stafford and Beverly, seems to get regular snowmobile traffic. The USFS doesn't have the riders or equipment to access the boundaries in those areas. There are a few regular groups that come in from the Blewett side out of Scotty Creek and ride the wilderness on a regular basis. They feel, and are likely correct, that they have almost zero risk of getting caught.

Please feel free to post photos on this website. That will do as much, if not more good than showing them to the USFS. There are many of us on here that are strongly opposed to snowmobilers riding in Wilderness areas. Obviously, nobody is going to get ticketed or fined from a photo (unless they are actually close enough to show plate numbers and location), but it might cause a few folks to make a different decision next time. If they are recognized, they will definitely get pressure from people on this website.

As I'm sure you would agree, backcountry skiers and backcountry snowmobilers are more similar than they are different.

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Thank you very much. I think there is much in common with skiers and snowmobilers. I have had great interactions with snowmobilers, have been helped by snowmobilers and had the opportunity to return the favor this season to help a snomo rider who had previously helped me. I was impressed at all of the folks riding below Brothers on nice new machines- mixed groups, men and women, all friendly to us skiers. I actually skitour a lot and am fairly well known in that community, and sad to say when I am on my snowmobile with skis strapped on the rack skiers sometimes are somewhat negative toward me. I am communicating with skiers and hope to promote goodwill and understanding and respectful confrontation of the problem. I am encouraging other skiers to respectfully speak up about this problem.

Yes, three years ago I sat on the summit of Earl and watched snomos in the Wilderness below, had the Sheriff and then the USFS on my cell phone, turned in the vehicle lic. #s. to the Leavenworth USFS LEO. Nothing was done then, but the next season more funding became available for Enforcement. We were told that our efforts in reporting helped secure the funding. I and others have volunteered time a labor for placing signs and will plan to do more.

Thanks again.

PowderMiner said:

I hope you put as much effort into other egregious abuses of the wilderness, if you honestly care of its "intent", and are as pure as the driven white snow?

As society goes, I’m not so sure I truly care about the 14 people (of 6.6 mil) who venture a short way across some line that has become a political paradigm hypocritically touted, regardless its predominant factual nemesis.

What is the “intent” of the wilderness? To ensure you have a clear mountain to sled to a line, hike to the top and ski down? Is it to preserve set aside areas in their natural form for future generations? Is it to ensure that the 1,400,000 visitors a year to the areas during “snow-off” alter the landscape less than the 14 at 12 areas 4 days a season?

The true critical areas are in your back yard, and yes they have laws to protect them too, do you follow them explicitly? Probably only want your neighbor to comply?

And yes, I have never ridden in the wilderness; but have sat on the line and watched snowboarders himark and jump off the rocks. Also I have noticed signage posted as to imply wilderness area more than a mile from the line (probably conveniently placed to preserver your self-interested private ski run?).

I’m going to get fried for this, and I respect most of you that will fry me for the true efforts of conservation to our sport. Do your thing, cause I might not have all the answers...
All I’m saying is that I’m becoming less empathetic of curtailing my life (or compeling my peers) for the discrepancies of others; as they may not have all the answers!

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The Law creating Wilderness was nothing that I did personally, I do not support the expansion of existing Wilderness, but I am glad that we have some Wilderness. I would prefer to ski closer to the car, but except for the Tronsen Non-Motorized area (that is also getting snomo-trespassed) there is not much close-accessible terrain for skiing, and a lot of that is tracked by snowmobiles and then poor skiing or non-skiable. I really do not know what your point is other than you sound pissed. Actually I walk about 6 hours on skis for every hour on a snowmachine to get there to start. Those hours walking are exchanged for a few runs, and the time walking and downhill skiing is of a higher quality done in silence and without trenches dug by snowmobiles- oh yeah, that Wilderness thing. If there was more plowed road access for ski touring terrain that was not trenched and tracked by snowmobiles- as in the Alps, for example- there would be less need to use a snowmobile to ski. Interesting that you express so much anger at a polite request to follow the Law. The fact is, I remember fondly the days in the '80s that I spent in Negro Creek and on Navaho and Brothers before snowmobiles got in there. However it is lawful for snowmobiles to go there, so I recognize and respect that snowmobile riders enjoy those areas as do us skiers or snowshoers.

PowderMiner said:

I’m really not pizzed or angry, and if you knew me, you’d know that’s not my nature. Also I have dedicated a significant portion of my life to the monitoring and restoration of variously designated lands. You are coming on to a snowmobile forum to say, I’m one of "you" (?) and I’d like it my way, or I’ll tell on you and identify an unlawful act. All I’m doing is calling you on it according to the way I see it. Unlawful acts happen all the time, possibly by you, every once in a while.

I am suggesting the point and practicality of “wilderness” is misconstrued (like some other laws that are often changed), and perhaps, conveniently for you regardless of the original intent. Wlderness is too politicaly charged to have a pratical discusion or any hope of adaptive management.

I’d like to think that science and best management practices along with some practical thought of the potential allowing some limited use of the “some of the best riding in the state”, based on science and BMPs (rather than hearsay and political affiliation).

What I am saying is that it is a mistake to not have a few of the desirable or tempting areas open and the funding resources used for management, whether segregated or shared, would be the best solution.

Anyway, good luck; wlecome to the forum, i hope you join us rather than despise us. There will always be some who don’t follow the rules, and the rest of us to pay to for trying to enforce (erroneously and ineffectively) the rules. This will continue to be debated and as long as snowmobile’s and riders are unjustly demonized we will get the brunt of the restrictions. ***Snowmobilers need to realize this***

I will be going to that area (the leagal side) more often to see if there is good riding and witness what I am missing in the “tempting” areas. Maybe sending proposals of limited segregated access to some "prime" areas would be a better use of our time?

What was the land use in the 80's and before? Has the impact increased or diminished in the last decade 2000 -2010? Are you sure no sleds made it in there or not on the days you were there? Can you show us on a map your access route and prefered ski runs? How many other skiers use this area and how often?

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It is unclear why it is difficult to grasp that independently of me or anyone posting here that the Law governs the use of USFS land. North of the Teanaway crest in Chelan County is Wilderness and it is, in fact, unlawful to ride snowmobiles in Wilderness. That fact is not dependent on anyone's opinion, background, superior assumption, righteous feeling, argument, rant, moral posture, 'locals rule' status, or etc.

Apparently we need to play some (seriously I do not but just for fun) "mine is bigger?" In the '89-90' season I spent 45 days skiing in that valley. I was off work for the season from an Alaska logging job and had finished my month-long trapline season on skis in the Wilderness in Jack, Meadow, and Solomon creeks. In that 45 days of skitouring when I camped 2-3 nights at a time, I saw no one and no snowmobiles, and no snowmobile tracks. I did not use my Tundra since I could not imagine getting through all of the drifted in road on Iron Mountain, so I skied in with a multi-night backpack. I summited Brothers, Navaho and Earl many times.

As far as saying I am one of you here, not at all. I respect folks here and admire the magnificent machines that I see and understand how much fun they are. I ride old machines, my favorite are my Tundras, I ride mostly to get up a road to go skiing or camping. Back in the day before the westsiders voted to outlaw fur trapping, that was my original use of a snowmobile. Ironically and sadly there is now snowmobile Wilderness trespass occurring on parts of my former Wilderness trapline- and some riders like to think that no one goes there or is affected! In the area in question I park on the road, partly because of my low-tech machines and partly because I want to ski.

In the real picture what I am attempting here is a civil attempt to engage the snowmobile community reasonably. Some of the folks that perhaps are called 'tree huggers' on this forum have serious political clout and gleefully would ban all snowmobiles everywhere if they could. I know that 'they' have money judging from the amount of lawsuits here (Chelan Co) funded by western WA $$ to put more water in Peshastin Creek, or limit logging, or etc., etc. all sort of restrictions and prohibitions. Read the hiker and skier forums- folks are going everywhere, more and more firsthand observation of snowmobile Wilderness trespass. Snowmobile Wilderness trespass is being documented all over the west and someday the political momentum as a result may swing in a direction that all here and even I will see as very unfortunate.

hurleyboarder21 said:

This is exactly what will close our riding.

Thank you randonnee for engaging us sledders in well thought out posts.

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You are welcome and thank you.

Personally if I only snowmobiled roads, that would be fine. However, I know how great off road is and do that some, and respect that sledders want untracked also- although I would be happy to hog it all for skiing! : )} (joke)

It is just the Wilderness thing- for goodness sakes in summer so many Regulations for people walking (!) are in place for Wilderness it is just crazy, but in winter the same Land gets snowmobile traffic!?

Edited to say THANK YOU for the excellent discussion! My wife and I are flying to SLC to ski powder at Alta the next few days. Talk to you later!