How to Resolve Belt Slipping in the Primary - M1K

Ausm7499 · Feb 9, 2010

I am running out of ideas and paitence with my 08M1K and I can't seem to resolve my belt heat. Before somebody tells me I need to wash my belt and clean my clutches I will give you a run down on what I have done.

- Belt and clutches are cleaned before every ride.
- Re-geared from 60/60 to 55/65
- RKT secondary tortional conversion 38 degree helix with snopro green spring
- New primary last season running stock yellow white with stock 80 grams
- Lots of venting
- Clutches are aligned
- Extra motor mount and torque stop

This sled has had belt issues from day one and I am tired of swapping belts 10 times a day. I have just about ran out of ideas but I know there is an answer to this problem I just haven't found it yet. Prior to riding last weekend I did a clutch alignment myself and checked the parallelism. I found that the primary was perfectly parallel with the secondary which is not what the service manual specs so I shimmed the motor mounts and got the primary cocked .06" forward and re-aligned the secondary. I rode this weekend and had more belt heat then I have had in a long time so that tells me that adjusting the parallelism did not help me out. I am planning on taking some of the shims out of the motor mounts and only cocking the primary .03" forward to see if I can find a happy medium. My thinking is that since I have put an extra motor mount and torque stop in that the motor is not rotating as much in the chasis as it would under stock conditions and that the .06" is too much. I have also thought about trying a different spring in the primary and some lighter weights but I don't want to throw money at bad ideas. Anybody got some constructive input for me? I am positive that the primary is the culprit causing the belt heat as it is way hotter the the secondary. Help

ARICH · Feb 9, 2010

sounds like you have tried everything that i could help you with, prolly a dumb question but have you tried running a 046 Belt? and have you checked for problems in your DD to see that it is spinning freely? also have you checked your track tension?

Ausm7499 · Feb 9, 2010

arcticat said:
sounds like you have tried everything that i could help you with, prolly a dumb question but have you tried running a 046 Belt? and have you checked for problems in your DD to see that it is spinning freely? also have you checked your track tension?

The 046 is the belt I run, the DD is brand new, and the track is as loose as it can be without ratcheting. The problem is in the clutching I just don't know how to fix it.

WyoBoy1000 · Feb 9, 2010

what rpm are you hitting, and where have you been riding/ snow conditions.
which weights.

Last year it seemed as if you had it pretty dialed, But with the weight you lost, a easier to turn track and lower gears I'm thinking you need to go to a 40* helix as the one you have now can't keep up. It seems many with the same mods you have are happy with a 40*

winter brew · Feb 9, 2010

If the primary is noticably hotter then it is being overpowered by the secondary....so you can add squeeze in the primary (less spring or more weight) or lessen squeeze in the secondary. That green spring is stout!, have you tried running it looser or a softer spring? Somewhere there is a balance that will drop heat and gain performance, it's just a matter of finding it.

Ausm7499 · Feb 9, 2010

WyoBoy1000 said:
what rpm are you hitting, and where have you been riding/ snow conditions.
which weights.

Last year it seemed as if you had it pretty dialed, But with the weight you lost, a easier to turn track and lower gears I'm thinking you need to go to a 40* helix as the one you have now can't keep up. It seems many with the same mods you have are happy with a 40*

Running low on rpms this year, I have only been hitting 7400-7450 in McCall in the powder. When I was riding up north at Trestle Creek earlier this season I was hitting 7600 and I didn't seem to have as much belt heat but its lower in elevation. I agree a 40 may suite me better but I would like to make the 38 work.

WyoBoy1000 · Feb 9, 2010

Sounds to me like the secondary is over shifting,(soft snow= less load) how much have you played with adjustments on the secondary. have you watched the tach, does it climb past that and then drop. The other option would be to run a heavy primary spring and more weight, might do it?

Last year when I was fighting it I dropped weight and got the belt to hook better and gained rpm but never gained much track speed or performance, think my problem is in the secondary. My sled should be going soon and I'm going to try the MDS weights and then Probably a 38* helix(stock compression style), I know other sleds that work great with the same setup I have tried less a shift assist, makes me think the shift assist creates a lesser load and lets it over shift.

homeycat · Feb 9, 2010

if you want to come out to washington i'd be happy to spend a weekend with you swapping out parts and trying to get your belt issue fixed....have you thought about going back to a compression setup on secondary???

Ausm7499 · Feb 9, 2010

homeycat said:
if you want to come out to washington i'd be happy to spend a weekend with you swapping out parts and trying to get your belt issue fixed....have you thought about going back to a compression setup on secondary???

Where do you live? I have thought about going back to a compression but I really like the way this setup shifts but it sounds like that maybe some of my problem. I had a ton of belt heat with the stock setup to so I don't think the style of secondary is the main culprit.

To answer the other questions I have not really played with the adjustablity on the secondary I think I have it one hole past middle and it up shifts and back shifts really well. This clutching shizz is a pain in the azz. I need some adjustables and a couple different springs.

I am planning on running a primary spring with a lower starting rate and higher finish this weekend and I will play with my secondary setup. I have a red/white secondary spring that I have ran a couple times but hate the way it shifts but I will give it another try.

markoo · Feb 9, 2010

Are you blowing belts or are they just getting hot? You might try it back off the spring tension in the secondary. If it is too tight the clutches work against each other.

Ausm7499 · Feb 9, 2010

Not blowing any just getting really hot and eventually pulling a cord.

WyoBoy1000 · Feb 9, 2010

markoo said:
Are you blowing belts or are they just getting hot? You might try it back off the spring tension in the secondary. If it is too tight the clutches work against each other.

I don't think its a matter of dropping tension, If you did the secondary would try to engage further and bring rpms down more. Stiffer is my theory or a steeper helix. I would think with all the mods and weight dropped it makes sense.

I thought you had some dalton adjustables

homeycat · Feb 9, 2010

i've run your same set up.... gears,torsional,and motor mts. motor mounts have helped and i went away from the torsional and back to compression.last year was always getting black marks on the primary. so far this year had good luck compression..not saying that the torsional is the problem but just a thought. would be easy to swap both clutches out on the hill. this has been the hardest sled i've ever had to get dialed in the way i want it. FAIRLY HAPPY NOW.

Ausm7499 · Feb 10, 2010

I do have some daltons but they are too heavy 80-87.5, I assumed when I bought the pipe set and head that more power would pull more weight but it didn't. I am pretty lost at this point I have several people telling me to do opposite things so I guess I will just start changing around my setup until it works. I readjusted my paralellism last night so I am hoping that helps. I think I found some cutler adjustables 70-80 but they are the turbo mag I hope the profile isn't to aggresive for my sled. I would think that they will be fine with my setup. I am very confused with what to do to my secondary setup. I really like the way it shifts right now so should I leave it alone and change the primary or change them both clutches and really screw stuff up.

As far as going back to a compression, I hated the way the stock setup shifted it was very inconsistent and left a lot to be desired.

homeycat · Feb 10, 2010

i personally think most of my probs were in the primary and motor mts....are you using the cat alignment bar? i'll shoot you a pm with my cell...

WyoBoy1000 · Feb 10, 2010

You could get the slp blue/pink spring (I think in AC measurements its close to same engagement but about 20lbs higher on top. They have been using it with heavier mtx weight and say the sleds are more responsive to shifting. Then you could use your daltons.

cpatts2000 · Feb 10, 2010

What position is your secondary spring in. It should be really loose with that green spring. That spring is way heavy for the powder. You may not have enough to overcome the spring. If that is the case tightening the spring and adding weight is not the answer, all that would do is not allow the secondary to shift all the way out. I found that the green would not let the secondary work properly, would not shift out, nice for throttle response, but terrible for belt heat.

Ausm7499 · Feb 10, 2010

I am running the green one notch past middle so its fairly tight. I was thinking about putting a polaris spring in it this weekend one is 120-310 and the other is 140-340. I don't know which one to run. Will the 310 provide another 300-400 rpm or should I go with the 340

DonoBBD · Feb 10, 2010

Ausm7499 said:
The 046 is the belt I run, the DD is brand new, and the track is as loose as it can be without ratcheting. The problem is in the clutching I just don't know how to fix it.

When the DDrive was out did you notice any washers under the drive near the bottom of the tunnel or bulkhead?

Check the parallelism again with the bar on the top of the primary then the bottom and see if the secondary is tipped down? I have seen this twice now on guys that tool on their own sleds and they loose those washers that keeps the drive level.

Then if this is good take that torsion system and chuck it as far as you can. We waited this long for this clutch and guys are going backwards with it. Make sure both bearings in the secondary are perfectly centered. If you have the old style helix with the gold ring you need to dowel pin the helix in.

Once you guys catch on to the reverse angle helix and the right springs you will out climb anything. IF the load is not on the track it back shifts without loosing ground speed.

Too each their own.....

Check to see if the secondary is level first.

Don.

Ausm7499 · Feb 10, 2010

DonoBBD said:
When the DDrive was out did you notice any washers under the drive near the bottom of the tunnel or bulkhead?

Check the parallelism again with the bar on the top of the primary then the bottom and see if the secondary is tipped down? I have seen this twice now on guys that tool on their own sleds and they loose those washers that keeps the drive level.

Then if this is good take that torsion system and chuck it as far as you can. We waited this long for this clutch and guys are going backwards with it. Make sure both bearings in the secondary are perfectly centered. If you have the old style helix with the gold ring you need to dowel pin the helix in.

Once you guys catch on to the reverse angle helix and the right springs you will out climb anything. IF the load is not on the track it back shifts without loosing ground speed.

Too each their own.....

Check to see if the secondary is level first.

Don.

I did not notice an spacer droping out when I swapped the DD but I will check to see if it is in there at the same angle as the primary.

As far as the tortional system goes I had terrible shifting with the stock comression setup and have had great shifting with the tortional. The tortional gives me more consistent shifting and its adjustable so I can fine tune it. I could be wrong but I am going to stick with the tortional until I try a few changes with the primary. I am going to try backing off the spring in the secondary and maybe even try the red/white again to see if that helps with the heat.

How about some input on how much stiffer finish rates effect peak rpm.

How to Resolve Belt Slipping in the Primary - M1K

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