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Calling IQ Guru's - Motor alignment issues

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EricW

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I first became aware of a possible motor alignment issue last winter when Mountainhorse and I put the final touches on my turbo install. I had bought a new SLP clutch alignment tool used to check the alignment between primary and secondary clutches. Our first check showed a gap at the rear of the secondary that was way beyond spec. We really scratched our heads on this as the mounts are engineered and not what you would consider adjustable. After running this issue by a few knowledgable folks we were told no to trust the SLP tool and to use the polaris SPX tool instead. We borrowed one and it showed the same misalignment but not as bad, just at the upper end of the spec as I recall.

Since that time I have posted a couple times that the SLP tool can't be trusted. i'm not so sure this is true now. I pulled my inner cooler today to do some work on it and just by eyeballing the distance from the throttle bodies to the jack shaft, it looked off, like the motor was rotated counter clockwise as it sits. I still had the SLP tool and did some CSI.

What do you think of my methods, diagnosis, and how should I correct the problem. BTW, I have destroyed a belt already with a fresh Indy Dan balanced clutch and under 500 miles at around 8 psi on that belt. It was washed, dried, broken in, and clearnce maintained at .020.

Pulled the inner cooler, installed some plugs and things just didn't look right

Pics446.jpg


Layed out the SLP tool and a strait edge to measure the gap between them at the bootom to see if they were true and consistent.

Pics450.jpg


Measured at the top nearest the clutch

Pics447.jpg


Measured at the bottom and both were the same. Both the tool and the strait edge would have to be indentically bent for this to be true right????

Pics448.jpg


This is looking down the tool as it is set in place against the secondary

Pics452.jpg


The gap at the rear of the tool at the secondary was a loose 7/64" or roughly 1/8". This is way too much even allowing for some torque flex right???

Pics458.jpg


If you agree that I have done this correctly, what is the best fix? All suggestions are appreciated. EW
 

AKSNOWRIDER

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I first became aware of a possible motor alignment issue last winter when Mountainhorse and I put the final touches on my turbo install. I had bought a new SLP clutch alignment tool used to check the alignment between primary and secondary clutches. Our first check showed a gap at the rear of the secondary that was way beyond spec. We really scratched our heads on this as the mounts are engineered and not what you would consider adjustable. After running this issue by a few knowledgable folks we were told no to trust the SLP tool and to use the polaris SPX tool instead. We borrowed one and it showed the same misalignment but not as bad, just at the upper end of the spec as I recall.

Since that time I have posted a couple times that the SLP tool can't be trusted. i'm not so sure this is true now. I pulled my inner cooler today to do some work on it and just by eyeballing the distance from the throttle bodies to the jack shaft, it looked off, like the motor was rotated counter clockwise as it sits. I still had the SLP tool and did some CSI.

What do you think of my methods, diagnosis, and how should I correct the problem. BTW, I have destroyed a belt already with a fresh Indy Dan balanced clutch and under 500 miles at around 8 psi on that belt. It was washed, dried, broken in, and clearnce maintained at .020.

Pulled the inner cooler, installed some plugs and things just didn't look right

Pics446.jpg


Layed out the SLP tool and a strait edge to measure the gap between them at the bootom to see if they were true and consistent.

Pics450.jpg


Measured at the top nearest the clutch

Pics447.jpg


Measured at the bottom and both were the same. Both the tool and the strait edge would have to be indentically bent for this to be true right????

Pics448.jpg


This is looking down the tool as it is set in place against the secondary

Pics452.jpg


The gap at the rear of the tool at the secondary was a loose 7/64" or roughly 1/8". This is way too much even allowing for some torque flex right???

Pics458.jpg


If you agree that I have done this correctly, what is the best fix? All suggestions are appreciated. EW

Eric I have seen one out this far..we ground slots in the engine straps to turn the motor on the straps(I would slot the mag side to move it)....you might also want to look very close at the bulkhead ..Doug(doug the danger on here) found his 07 D-7 had cracked thru the pto side mnts as well as across the bulkhead right in front of the motor(he has a thread on here showing pics)..on my 08 D-8 (1 belt in 2600 miles) mine shows about half the twist as yours(within spec)I am planning on looking over my bulkhead this weekend when I am working on it......
 

AKSNOWRIDER

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hey eric, that is not the factory spx tool..the polaris tool is at least 1/4 in thick has L W T formed into the side of it... I will have to post a pic of mine....
DSC00588.jpg
 

IQ?

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Almost all -09 i have made PDI on have been out of spec.
I have the SPX tool but in these cases the motor has been
to much back with a short cc and a gap of about 1-2mm
in the front measuring point.
The most of -09 were short of a shim in the right front motormount
which is used to shim the engine a little forward offset-
To get the alignment 0 with spx or a 0,5mm extra forward.
I prefer the extra offset thou its not recommended.
The shim is in the exploded view but not on the sled.
Just shim and go.Loosen all 4 mounts and torque stop
slip a 1-2 mm shim (1/8?) have a helper pry the motor
as far as you need and then re-torque and recheck
should be good.
ED
 

Kraven

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Clutch alignment tools

RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB

TOP= POLARIS LWT Part # PS-47477 identifiable by the LWT 1 1/2" tall letters inscribed (approx .070" of built -in "kick" WHICH IS GENERALLY MORE THAN YOU WANT!!!!!!) for use with TSS-04 LIGHTWEIGHT SECONDARY ONLY (contacts the outside of the secondary) My understanding is that the SPX tool is identical to the above except it is for the TSS-98 Secondary


MIDDLE= SLP part # 20-191 This tool is parallel, "straight" no built-in "kick". For use with roller secondarys fits the TSS-98 PERFECTLY, Will work with TSS-04 requires .100" setback measurement to be factored in with a stack of feeler gauges or vernier caliper.(contacts the outside of the secondary) SLP now has a new tool specific to the TSS-04 to where you don't have to jerk around with measuring .100" back, new for 2010, PART # 20-188 $49.95, TEAM also has tools specific to the TSS-98 and TSS-04.


NEXT TO BOTTOM= SLP part # 20-150 Standard for "Old style" button secondary, Basically EDGE's and older Indy's. 5/8" OFFSET between backside of secondary. This tool is parallel, as in "straight", no built-in "kick" (contacts the backside of the secondary which is somewhat inaccurate as the backside of the secondary "moves" with the width adjustment on the models with externally adjustable width secondarys)


Bottom Hi -Performance Engineering Center to Center Tool, E-Z to fabricate out of a piece of Scrap Aluminum or Steel, cut-out for jackshaft is 1" Exactly, after that 11.5" c/c. After that you do NOT need the additional 1/2" diameter holes shown in the pic, only the 1" horse shoe or 1" round hole cut-out is req'd and then put some black magic marker on the edge of the tool, tap lightly on the crank snout and you'll have your mark, compare that to your 11.5" scribe mark



I've HEARD REPORTS OF SOME TOOLS NOT BEING "STRAIGHT", PROBABLY NOT A BAD IDEA TO CHECK 'EM WITH A STRAIGHT EDGE!!!!!!!



TIPS FOR SLOTTING THE ENGINE BRACKET(S) IF NECESSARY

Here's a tip, if you're going to slot the mag side bracket, first check the air gap at the rear of the secondary to see where it's at.

After that, take the amount you're off by at the secondary and go slightly less than double that "air gap" amount on the slot.

Example, my DRAGON 700 was off by .180". Alignment tool touching the front of the secondary and it had a .180" air gap at the rear.(UGLY!!!!!!)

.180" times 2 = .360" go slightly less, say .320" +/-

Slot the MAG Side going FORWARD approximately .320" and you'll be REAL CLOSE!!!!!

Double check C/C, and if need be, slot BOTH sides an equal amount at that point and you're done.

First time I did this I removed the engine, took about 4 hours, and that's how I prefer to do it.

But for those of you that don't want to mess with all the wiring, fuel lines, anti-freeze draining, etc, I got it down to the Indy Pit Stop Style of unbolting the 4 engine mount bolts and leaving EVERYTHING ELSE in place. Jack up the engine, sticking some 2" x 4" blocks under it and removing ONLY the Mag side bracket, slotting and re-installing. It's a P.I.T.A. this way but for those of you that don't want to mess around with draining the anti-freeze and trying to figure out the wiring, etc, it's an option.



 
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Kraven

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Correct amount of twist

polar..the slp tool isnt junk..but you really have to pay attention when using it..the factory tool has the right twist built into it and just drops in...

Mike,

Please keep in mind that the POLARIS tool has approx .070" of "kick" built into it, which is more than you want.

SLP recommends ZERO to .020" of "kick" when using their PUSH limiter.

.070" is way too much, I.M.O.

Hope this helps
 
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AKSNOWRIDER

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Mike,

Please keep in mind that the POLARIS tool has approx .070" of "kick" built into it, which is more than you want.

SLP recommends ZERO to .020" of "kick" when using their PUSH limiter.

.070" is way too much, I.M.O.

Hope this helps

so far I have gotten 1 belt in 2600 miles...all lined up with the LWT tool...as cool as my clutches run I am assuming they are pulling straight under load which is why polaris speced the tool with the .70 kick..but yeah I know what you mean about its alot of kick...seems to work good though....
 

thefullmonte

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I've been using the Team tool. It is kinda a PITA as you have to physically measure, but you can get very accurate. My sled took everything I had and the use of a very long 2X4 just to make parallel. I may pull it this season if it has move at all and do some grinding on the motor plate.
 
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EricW

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Example, my DRAGON 700 was off by .180". Alignment tool touching the front of the secondary and it had a .180" air gap at the rear.(UGLY!!!!!!)

.180" times 2 = .360" go slightly less, say .320" +/-

Slot the MAG Side going FORWARD approximately .320" and you'll be REAL CLOSE!!!!!

Thanks for all the info guys, still head scratching on this one.

Kraven, If I read this right and I have a 1/8"/.125 gap at the rear of the tool then I would slot the front mag mount just under double that or .230 +/-, and I would slot the rear of the mount brace to allow for clockwise rotation to correct?

I just can't believe it could be out this bad. I think I'll pull the motor in prep of the adjustment, and just give things a good once over. I hope being 400#'s last year didn't bend my bulkhead, but I am suspect as my knees are out about the same amount as the clutches.

Thanks again all, keep it coming. EW (now 235 with bent sled. lol)
 
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Ron

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It seems to me that this is getting too complicated. If you are using the Polaris torque stop at the factory setting then the easiest tool to use accurately would be the one Mike talks about. It's specifically made to allow accurate measurement of offset and alignment. Most dealers including Carl's Cycle use that tool.
If you are changing the torque stop setting or using a push pull torque stop then consider a different method of calculation.
A third-very important factor is clutch center distance not easy to calculate with a forward canted engine.
The acid test would be to check by pulling the drive clutch back so that the engine closes against the torque stop like it does under power. (straps or a long pipe clamp will work) Now you can; 1. measure clutch center distance. 2. Run a straight edge along the drive clutch to see that the driven is square to the straight edge. Measure from the fixed sheave on the driven since the moveable sheave can tweak against the belt adjustment bolt. I found the Polaris LWT Tool to be very accurate.
 

Kraven

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Engine alignment

Thanks for all the info guys, still head scratching on this one.

Kraven, If I read this right and I have a 1/8"/.125 gap at the rear of the tool then I would slot the front mag mount just under double that or .230 +/-, and I would slot the rear of the mount brace to allow for clockwise rotation to correct?
I just can't believe it could be out this bad. I think I'll pull the motor in prep of the adjustment, and just give things a good once over. I hope being 400#'s last year didn't bend my bulkhead, but I am suspect as my knees are out about the same amount as the clutches.

Thanks again all, keep it coming. EW (now 235 with bent sled. lol)


Eric W,

On the bold, correct on the dimension to slot amount, except just to clarify you want to slot the bracket to engine case holes (will post pic below) NOT the holes going to the rubber motor mounts.

On the underlined, NO.

Hope this helps,



[URL=http://s815.photobucket.com/albums/zz79/Kraven700/?action=view&current=SLOTTEDBRKT.jpg][/URL]

 
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E

EricW

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OK here is another intersting twist to my situaation. I borrowed the Polaris SPX "LWT" tool today from my deal and did some checking. The following numbers were achieved with the secondary pushed into the shaft, and the tool laying across the upper 1/3 of the secondary above the bolt (Upper) and with the tool laying across the lower 1/3 below the bolt (Lower). Two measurement were taken, at the front of the secondary and at the rear.

Polaris Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .029"
Rear = .098" .069" difference

Polaris Tool - Lower Measurement
Front = .021"
Rear = .060" .039" difference

SLP Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .230"
Rear = .374" .144" difference

SLP Lower Measurement
Front = 0 Just touched
Rear = 0 " " No difference

So what the hell does all this mean? It looks like my motor is not only rotated clockwise, but it is also lower on the PTO side, is this correct?
I dont know what to think.

This is what I mean by upper and lower

Upper

100_9732.jpg


Lower

100_9733.jpg


Thanks again for all the help. EW
 

thefullmonte

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I think you are on to something there EW. It would seem the PTO side needs to be shimmed upwards slightly. From your measurements it would seem the lower part of the primary is closer than the upper. Indicating that the motor is laying at a slight angle.
Hard to explain, but I think your extra leg work has exposed some issues. I know I will be checking it that way from now on. Keep in mind that the location of the motor in relation to the secondary may torque back and up to some extent taking out some of that offset.
Curious :confused:
 

Kraven

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Twist & shout

OK here is another intersting twist to my situaation. I borrowed the Polaris SPX "LWT" tool today from my deal and did some checking. The following numbers were achieved with the secondary pushed into the shaft, and the tool laying across the upper 1/3 of the secondary above the bolt (Upper) and with the tool laying across the lower 1/3 below the bolt (Lower). Two measurement were taken, at the front of the secondary and at the rear.

Polaris Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .029"
Rear = .098" .069" difference

Polaris Tool - Lower Measurement
Front = .021"
Rear = .060" .039" difference

SLP Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .230"
Rear = .374" .144" difference

SLP Lower Measurement
Front = 0 Just touched
Rear = 0 " " No difference

So what the hell does all this mean? It looks like my motor is not only rotated clockwise, but it is also lower on the PTO side, is this correct?
I dont know what to think.

This is what I mean by upper and lower

Upper

100_9732.jpg


Lower

100_9733.jpg


Thanks again for all the help. EW


Eric W,

First of al, thanks for taking the time to post your dimensions and pictures, good work.

I hear what you're saying, and that's possible, as I also checked my sled in a similar way. But found my sled engine to be "twisted" ONLY.

1) What you/we are trying to determine is IF the crankshaft and jackshaft are PARALLEL in ALL 3 dimensions, x/y/z planes.

2) That being said using the POLARIS tool with that .070" of "kick" (and/or any other tool that is less than straight) just adds further confusion into the mix.

3) When checking with the SLP tool, the tool should be kept in-line with the centerlines of the crank and jackshaft, so in your 2nd pic, I would suggest lowering the alignment bar to BELOW the crank centerline when checking the secondary BELOW the jackshaft centerline, NOT high and low as in your lower pic.(I realize this can't be done with the POLARIS tool as the angles on the tool only fit the clutch on top).

4) I'll bet that your engine is MAINLY off (twist only) checking with the tool not parallel to the crank/jackshaft centers adds that twist into the mix as if the engine is higher/lower than the jackshaft c/line.

5) So if you wouldn't mind trying to check your set-up as suggested I paragraph (3) above, and post some feedback that would be great.

Thanks, and let's see if we can get this figured out for you.

BTW, on the bold and underlined, the difference between the POLARIS and SLP tool is .075" based on your information (which confirms the .070" as I had previously posted numerous times), so unless you're riding a bone stock FST with M-10 rear suspension and electric start to Church on Sunday morning wearing "hippo hands" AND you're collecting Social Security , STOP using that POLARIS tool, .070" of "kick" is WAY too much for any kind of performance sled.
 
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R

Ron

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OK here is another intersting twist to my situaation. I borrowed the Polaris SPX "LWT" tool today from my deal and did some checking. The following numbers were achieved with the secondary pushed into the shaft, and the tool laying across the upper 1/3 of the secondary above the bolt (Upper) and with the tool laying across the lower 1/3 below the bolt (Lower). Two measurement were taken, at the front of the secondary and at the rear.

Polaris Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .029"
Rear = .098" .069" difference

Polaris Tool - Lower Measurement
Front = .021"
Rear = .060" .039" difference

SLP Tool - Upper Measurement
Front = .230"
Rear = .374" .144" difference

SLP Lower Measurement
Front = 0 Just touched
Rear = 0 " " No difference

So what the hell does all this mean? It looks like my motor is not only rotated clockwise, but it is also lower on the PTO side, is this correct?
I dont know what to think.

This is what I mean by upper and lower


Eric,

The engine moves around under throttle and off throttle so the ideal clutch alignment would be perfectly square with the right clutch offset when under full load. The engine lifts up on the PTO side and pulls back toward the driven at full throtte so it will be more "square" if it's low on the PTO side at rest. How much it lifts could be calculated but it might take a laser since the calculation would have to be at the clutch to be accurate. You can easily calculate how much the pto side of the head raises and know that it will be more at the clutch.
Some of this might be splitting hairs anyway. It's likely that the bulkhead and motor mounts will flex more over time. The engine is constantly moving as you hit bumps, get on and off throttle, etc etc. Is there an absolute, perfect alignment even possible, I doubt it.

Polaris led the industry with the canted engine and a new method of determining offset. A few years ago engine alignment was set square so that you were always off under power. Off set was determined using the moveable sheave on the driven-we know that doesn't work well because you move that sheave with the belt deflection adjustment. How much cant should an engine have?-that's primarily dependent on your torque stop. NO matter how much power your engine will only move back until the torque stop does just that-stop it. Any additional movement will be up-limited somewhat by the flex in the motor mounts.
At some point "theory" needs some practical application- i.e. results. Carl's Cycle specializes in mod sleds & they have built some monster sleds. (Like the 900 with a 3rd cyclinder) They use the Polaris tool and measure at the top of the driven. JKinzer are you out there? A Poo mechanic with a turbo and 3000 miles last year would be a good source of "real world" results! Eric you might PM Jeremy for his thoughts.
 
E

EricW

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Thanks again for all the imput guys. I really do appreciate your time to respond.

Kraven, I will get the other measurements you mentioned with the SLP tool below the bolt on the primary and secondary and post 'em up for comparison.

Ron, I rode with Jeremy a few times last year and that iswhen I began wondering about my clutching. I could rarely get my rpm's over 8k with the same clutching everyone else was using. Jeremy's sled was way more responsive than mine when we swapped. I was having some boost leak issues and didn't have the waste gate set up enough given the leaks. I have copied Jeremy's clutching and cured my boost leaks. If my sled still doesn't make rpm, could this increased offset (over the Polaris spec w/ Polaris tool) be a contributor.

I ran on the same belt for 3-4 hundred miles last spring at a max RPM of 7900 or so. Lightened up the weights to get 8200 and the belt blew 2nd day. That said, it was warm spring conditions with heavy snow and 8 psi. I think I have more testing to do, but I know that I am beyond Polaris spec using their tool. If I do decide to slot, to get into spec, are you saying slot only and not shim to compensate the horizontal drop that the numbers reflect. With the addition of boost maybe the engine will torque up to spec under power?

I know that this issue and my explanation get a little confusing, sorry, i hope you follow what I'm trying to say.

Maybe I'll take a day off and smoke a couple turkeys. If you set them in the rack .750" from the hrizontal and lateral racks with the drumsticks in the verticle position in the same plane as the front lid of the smoker they almost always come out perfect and perform well. Maybe I should lose the shop coat and clutch tools and stick to an apron and tongs. lol.

Happy early Thanksgiving everyone, we have much to be Thankful for all engineering and design aside. EW
 
R

Ron

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Great info on the turkey, might be a little clearer than clutching, ha ha! Timely info for sure.
You are into a new area of clutch alignment as far as I know. I knew my engine had a little downward tilt at the PTO as well as the foreward cant but didn't think much more about it. With a BB or T there's got to be more lift than with stock. There's enought lift tha a few stockers broke bolts last year on the PTO side front motor mount. The bolts broke where the threads meet the shoulder, a weak spot. I think MH posted a thread with info on where to get a stronger bolt with a longer shoulder.

Thinking out loud, you could measure the lift at the outside of the head and then interpolate a measurement to the clutch. And if you are out of spec, guess you are trying to figure out if the bulkhead is twisted or if it came that way from the factory. Not likely that the motor mount is bent but possible. The factory process is automated with a high degree of consistancy, so? Where I'm headed is....if the bulkhead is tweaked then correcting that might be the focus before aligning the clutch? Or ignore what might be almost impossible to find & get the clutches aligned as the engine now sits in the chassis? I'd be inclined to make those decisions, select a method of alignment and then get it as close as possible.
 
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