Continued clutching theories...

[Anylizer]

Since the other thread was getting high-jacked/derailed, I have opted to move the discussion over here where more people might benefit from the information.
Here is the original thread if you wish to catch up.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378757

 

[Anylizer]

So... DEEP POWDER GUY..... back to the TRA!
If you have not changed the primary spring, secondary spring, helix angle, roller diameter, or mass of the pins... WHERE DOES THE INCREASE IN RPM COME FROM????? When the clickers are changed to a higher #.

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Subscribed

 

[kiliki]

:face-icon-small-win:face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-sho

I'm only 15 year into it buy DPG is 25 years in soooooo doo tail...

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Here's the comment about the TRA from Anylizer..."changing the clickers has 0 to do with mass and everything to do with changing shift profile. Additionally by changing shift profile the Doo the rpm is proper

1st off the shift profile of a TRA ramp does not change..Everything about a 427 ramp, 415 ramp or any TRA ramp the shift profile and the shift character of the ramps
remains the same on the TRA weather your on clicker #2 or clicker #5.......if your wondering how the TRA got brought into the subject on the Cat site I was simple stating how easy it is to adjust for rpm at elevation by simply adding or removing set screws to increase or decrease rpm in Dalton or Cutler adjustable flyweights ... I used the skidoo TRA which offers a similar Adjustable Feature "clickers" for adjusting RPM in the field and of coarse some of the trouble makers got a hold of it and it quickly turned the discussion into a junk show.

DPG

 

[Anylizer]

Answer the question Smart Guy...(DPG)

If none of the clutching components listed above^^^^ were changed... Then what caused the change in RPM when the clickers were moved???

 

[mtsummitx]

I am not a clutching expert, so I ask this question to gain more knowledge.

Doesn't changing the clicker on a TRA change the steepness of the ramp angle because the end of the ramp sits on an eccentric (clicker bolt) which in turn either raises or lowers the ramp angle depending on clicker position???? Which in turn then raises or lowers peak RPM???

 

[Anylizer]

I am not a clutching expert, so I ask this question to gain more knowledge.

Doesn't changing the clicker on a TRA change the steepness of the ramp angle because the end of the ramp sits on an eccentric (clicker bolt) which in turn either raises or lowers the ramp angle depending on clicker position???? Which in turn then raises or lowers peak RPM???

Exactly... !!! Changing the clicker effectively changes the shift profile(of the ramp), therefor altering the operating RPM! Additionally, the steeper ramp profile reduces the ability to up-shift. (using the same mass) The next clutch ratio cannot be reached... just like leaving your car in 2nd. gear... the engine continues to rev up (some), but ground speed (track speed) increases very little if at all.
So the roller may not travel clear to the end ramp allowing for full shift ie... track speed will be lower than it would if RPM's were reached at a lower clicker #, because we are not reaching the same "Clutch" ratio's as before.

 

[Anylizer]

... maybe another way to put it would be... increasing the ramp profile (turning up the clickers), stalls the up-shift, allowing the engine to maintain RPM.

 

[mtsummitx]

Did not think of the track speed equation in there. Makes sense. Thanks!!

 

[Anylizer]

One common mistake, is the belief that if you are achieving the desired RPM, there is nothing left to be gained. A lot of guys simply increase/decrease mass until they get the desired RPM and then quit clutching. The shift profile, and shift curve (both different) will effect track speed in both up-shift and back-shift characteristics.
Additionally, snow conditions,track length, paddle configuration, track rubber compound, rider weight, and desired performance levels, can all effect the needed clutch calibration... ie shift profiles & shift curves.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

The beauty about the TRA like any clutch is there a ramp profile or flyweight profile suited any type of shifting character you wish...unfortunately for mountain style deep powder ride we choose profiles that don't shift into (overdrive) like someone setup for the trails out east.....about the TRA the arms/rollers follow the profile of the ramp profile if you click up all the does is apply s'more force/load against the roller/arm when more load is applied the motor and clutch responds to the load/ force . In theory you can gain approx 750 rpm from adjusting your clicker from 1 to 5 without effecting engagement, up shift or back shift all the force of moving each ramp ever so slightly only adds more load to each roller/arm pushes and shifts against the ramp. Remember it requires force to allow the roller/arm assembly to glide up an down each roller.... Besides the primary spring each roller/arm assembly and the pin weight inside the roller are doing all the work within the TRA the arm/roller senses everything and adapt itself to a bazillions different ramp profiles and clutch combo.

As far as track speed goes you can clutch these 800 motors to run over 100 mph at sea level going down the trail and in the mid to upper 50s above 9000 feet in deep powder. Rider weight and suspension factors into air Temps. Barometric pressure all effect top speed.

DPG

 

[mtsummitx]

My thinking would tell me by changing clicker you are going to reduce full up shift because of making ramp angle steeper. For instance, if on clicker setting 1 you pull a full given ramp profile at let's say 7200 RPM. So you crank up the clicker to six to pull 8000 RPM. The way you get from 7200 to 8000 is by making the ramp angle steeper which in essence is "locking out" the top end of the ramp because you are not making enough HP at desired RPM to pull the full amount of that particular ramp profile correct??? So as a crutch it limits the up shift to keep the RPM up. In the dirt bike world it would correlate to dropping from a 14T countershaft sprocket to a 13T. I don't know if I was able to paint the picture that's in my head in words very well but that's how I see it.

Again though, not an expert. That's why I'm ordering a Rooster Built kit soon as he calls me back

 

[Anylizer]

MTSummitX... your understanding is correct.

 

[Anylizer]

The beauty about the TRA like any clutch is there a ramp profile or flyweight profile suited any type of shifting character you wish...unfortunately for mountain style deep powder ride we choose profiles that don't shift into (overdrive) like someone setup for the trails out east.....about the TRA the arms/rollers follow the profile of the ramp profile if you click up all the does is apply s'more force/load against the roller/arm when more load is applied the motor and clutch responds to the load/ force . In theory you can gain approx 750 rpm from adjusting your clicker from 1 to 5 without effecting engagement, up shift or back shift all the force of moving each ramp ever so slightly only adds more load to each roller/arm pushes and shifts against the ramp. Remember it requires force to allow the roller/arm assembly to glide up an down each roller.... Besides the primary spring each roller/arm assembly and the pin weight inside the roller are doing all the work within the TRA the arm/roller senses everything and adapt itself to a bazillions different ramp profiles and clutch combo.

As far as track speed goes you can clutch these 800 motors to run over 100 mph at sea level going down the trail and in the mid to upper 50s above 9000 feet in deep powder. Rider weight and suspension factors into air Temps. Barometric pressure all effect top speed.

DPG

ANSWER THE QUESTION.... If none of the clutching components have been replaced... Why is there an increase/decrease of RPM when the clicker are changed???????

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

ANSWER THE QUESTION.... If none of the clutching components have been replaced... Why is there an increase/decrease of RPM when the clicker are changed???????

I'm not sure what you mean " none of the components have changed " in the TRA primary regardless of which component parts you choose you will always have a spring, ramp, arm with roller and pin weight....when the offset clickers of the TRA is adjusted UP a notch it slightly puts more force on the back of the ramp. The roller has to work harder to travel the same distance on the ramp profiles. Every time you click to a higher number the roller has to work slightly harder than the previous lower number to travel the same distance of ramp profile. Remember like I said the arm/roller assembly of the TRA is like a membrane all the signals of the CVT is go through those arm enough to move the rpm up or down. A lot of people complain about the TRA but that one feature to adjust your RPM to elevations and terrain is a sweet little feature that doesnt get much credit IMO....dalton, cutler and others make and adjustable flyweight as well that just adjust rpm by adding and subtracting set screw which work with the same principle in mind as the TRA clickers.

DPG

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

My thinking would tell me by changing clicker you are going to reduce full up shift because of making ramp angle steeper. For instance, if on clicker setting 1 you pull a full given ramp profile at let's say 7200 RPM. So you crank up the clicker to six to pull 8000 RPM. The way you get from 7200 to 8000 is by making the ramp angle steeper which in essence is "locking out" the top end of the ramp because you are not making enough HP at desired RPM to pull the full amount of that particular ramp profile correct??? So as a crutch it limits the up shift to keep the RPM up. In the dirt bike world it would correlate to dropping from a 14T countershaft sprocket to a 13T. I don't know if I was able to paint the picture that's in my head in words very well but that's how I see it.

Again though, not an expert. That's why I'm ordering a Rooster Built kit soon as he calls me back

Keep on mind all ramp profiles are not alike. In the mountains and deep powder we like steeper ramp profiles so the ramp/roller arms have to work harder to stay within the peak torque of the powerband best suited for steep and deep mountain riding. Dow in the flatlands ramps profile are usually much flatter which allows the TRA to shift into an overdrive sending the cruising at over 100 mph down the trail on an 800 etec. Same motor steeper mountain ramps same 800 eye motor @ 9000 feet in the deep powder 55 mph top speed....you can clutch and gear you sled many ways for the style riding you do.

DPG

 

[mtsummitx]

If the ramp was steeper, and you have the HP to pull it all the way through at the desired RPM wouldn't that cause it to up shift faster because the steeper ramp profile is pushing the sheaves together sooner??

Sent from my smarter than me Galaxy S4 while fumbling my way through this tapatalk app.

 

[mtsummitx]

If your clutches are shifting out all the way your track speed is going to be limited to your gearing, the only thing changing ramps and stuff would change is how fast you reach peak track speed and at what RPM you are running when you get there right?

Sent from my smarter than me Galaxy S4 while fumbling my way through this tapatalk app.

 

[Anylizer]

I'm not sure what you mean " none of the components have changed " in the TRA primary regardless of which component parts you choose you will always have a spring, ramp, arm with roller and pin weight....when the offset clickers of the TRA is adjusted UP a notch it slightly puts more force on the back of the ramp. The roller has to work harder to travel the same distance on the ramp profiles. Every time you click to a higher number the roller has to work slightly harder than the previous lower number to travel the same distance of ramp profile. Remember like I said the arm/roller assembly of the TRA is like a membrane all the signals of the CVT is go through those arm enough to move the rpm up or down. A lot of people complain about the TRA but that one feature to adjust your RPM to elevations and terrain is a sweet little feature that doesnt get much credit IMO....dalton, cutler and others make and adjustable flyweight as well that just adjust rpm by adding and subtracting set screw which work with the same principle in mind as the TRA clickers.



DPG

WOW ???? membrane???? WTF???
The only part of this that is somewhat correct is "making the roller work harder"
The only similarities between the adjustable cam arms, and the TRA clickers, is that RPM's can be adjusted with both fairly easily. While both change RPM, they are not doing it in the same manner. One is changing total mass effecting RPM (cam arm), and the other is altering ramp profile to change RPM (TRA).
In order to have the exact same effect, you would need to be adding or subtracting mass from the pins of the TRA, as you add or subtract screws from your cam arms... IE... changing MASS!!
If you wished to change the RPM in your "Comet Clone" (p-85, Cat, Yamaha) clutch, in the same manner as the TRA is altering RPM, you would have to grind on the roller contacting face of the cam arm. Thus changing the "Shift profile" of the cam arm, effecting RPM.