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View Full Version : Steeper track attack angle=better deep snow performance?


tkuss
05-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Anybody read the 2010 ski-doo updates from the home page. Here is a blurp from it talking about the improvement of the ski-doo summit models.

New improved Summit rear suspension: The angle of attack on the improved Summit rear suspension is plus 7 degrees versus last year. All the tests performed by Ski-Doo engineers and members of its Mountain Technical Council (Dealers and/or consumers) show that this slight increase will not negatively affect the handling whatsoever. In fact it improves the on-trail riding and off-trail sidehilling/boondocking by a large margin—which was the benefit sought.





How can this be? I have never heard this, and it just doesn't make sense. Anybody have any ideas? Am I reading it wrong?

skis_n_skid
05-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Where are they measuring the angle that is plus 7° versus last year? If they're talking about the angle of the track bend at the bottom front of the skid/rails, then increasing that angle would make the attack angle more shallow. If they're talking about the angle of the track bend at the drive shaft, then increasing the angle would make the attack angle steeper.

Maybe they're talking about the angle of the track bend at the front of the rails?

tkuss
05-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Yes, I guess I can't tell what direction they are increasing the track from.

exman04
05-07-2009, 01:15 PM
I dont see why they would do that. If they want to make a mtn sled better for trails, buils a crossover sled like the assult or the crossfire. think of all the people doing drop and rolles to do the opposite of what they did. with a steeper angle they are adding more roll resisntace which robs hp. and its gonna put less track in the snow, which again people put longer tracks on there mtn sled to get away from this. some of the things these companies do boggles me.

winter brew
05-07-2009, 01:47 PM
steeper would likely work better on the roads and for sidehilling as stated.....but not necessarily any better in the deep, but that's not what they are saying. Just not any worse. And with the sled being so light they can likely get by with a steeper approach without trenching issues or making its "deep snow-ability" any worse.

longhairfreak
05-07-2009, 03:43 PM
steeper would likely work better on the roads and for sidehilling as stated.....but not necessarily any better in the deep, but that's not what they are saying. Just not any worse. And with the sled being so light they can likely get by with a steeper approach without trenching issues or making its "deep snow-ability" any worse.

Ski-doo is blowing smoke up your ( ! ). If you believe that this is beneficial you deserve to own a Ski-doo. The funny thing is alot of people will suck this up like it was the second coming of Christ.

mtn_extreme
05-07-2009, 07:27 PM
You have to read it carefully. They say that it improves handling and trail characteristics. It "does not" say that it doesn't hurt hillclimbing, only that it won't "negativly affect" handling. Sounds like the XP is going to be a crossover sled next year. Hillclimbing sacrificed for trailability.

mountainhorse
05-07-2009, 07:55 PM
Maybe they are trying to get rid of the difficulty that the magazines and others were having in putting the XP on its side compared to the other brands.

THRLCKR
05-07-2009, 09:43 PM
To me, its kinda wierd seeing "improved trail riding" and "Summit" in the same sentence.... There sure is a lot of hype going around these days about attack angles, like the '10 nytro's 18 degree shallow bend, and now ski doo going the other way. We've had a lot of guys looking for the shallow bend on their rails, and even some wanting to get steeper. I guess it all just comes down to how the rest of the sled is set up, and what it's set up to do.

sled_guy
05-08-2009, 12:20 AM
Maybe they are trying to get rid of the difficulty that the magazines and others were having in putting the XP on its side compared to the other brands.

BING, BING, BING We have a winner and once again it is mountainhorse.

Caution: I'm about to piss XP riders off.

There has been a fairly large number of people, not just magazine riders, who have complained about the XP's handling, especially with longer tracks and bigger riders. Take an otherwise fairly skilled rider and put him (or her) on a 163 XP, point them down an off camber hill and ask them to cut it around in to a sidehill. 9 out of 10 won't be able to do it.

XP lovers have always said that this was bull crap. "You just need to learn to ride it". Well apparantly the factory agreed for 2010. They lengthened the front torque arm 1" to push the front of the skid down 1". This allows for easier "pivot" so that you can turn the thing.

I spent a bunch of time on the 2010 XP comparing it to an '09 and it does make a difference. Not enough in my opinion, you still can't turn it on it's side nearly as easy as the Cat or Polaris and it's only slightly better than the heavy Nytro. But it is noticeably better than the '09.

BUT, the side affect of pushing the front of the rear suspension down is that you increase approach angle. In their marketing spin they say that doesn't adversely affect the XPs performance. I can't comment, the snow we rode it in didn't present any challenge to any of the sleds.

But that's why they did it, they were trying to improve the off camber and sidehilling performance.

sled_guy

triple7
05-08-2009, 12:43 AM
Well, I have always said that the xp isnt a stellar performer in hard snow sidehilling. I dont even enjoy riding hard snow so I simply DO NOT care. As for soft snow performance, mine has never been beaten...but thats just mine. Skidoo went the wrong direction in a few key areas in 2010, for that reason I will keep my 08. Adding weight and increasing approach angle in a mountain chassis??? WTF.

skidoo_guy
05-08-2009, 09:38 AM
Between my Rev and my XP the Rev is way more predictable on turning it on it's side and I need that predictablity in the trees. On the XP sometimes I just don't know if I am going to be able to get it pulled up fast enough and hold it when I am going slow through the trees. I was going to try tilting the steering post back but didn't go out to ride after I thought of that. I can carve it no problem when sitting and that is why I think I need to move back. But I am also thinking of trying the new A-arm and shock in my 08 next year.

sledtahoe
05-08-2009, 10:59 AM
It seems to be the track rides like a log when sidehilling etc..I would be more worried about the clutches.All the guy's in our group can't get them to rev out without clutch work.And then there is the belt thing..OMI

highlife
05-12-2009, 01:19 PM
It seems to be the track rides like a log when sidehilling etc..I would be more worried about the clutches.All the guy's in our group can't get them to rev out without clutch work.And then there is the belt thing..OMI

I bought an 05 800 159" Rev brand new in 2005 and rode the heck out of it up here in Alaska. I love that sled. I just bought a 2009 XP 800 163" and rode the heck out of it this season.

Without a doubt, the Rev is the hands down winner for ease of operation and predictability in any terrain. I just really learned how to ride my XP at the end of the season. In the powder it handles very well, I can carve and climb and jump with ease. Down hill powder turns are another story on the XP. They are tough to execute because if you put your feet in the footwells your weight is too far forward and the centralized mass wants to keep going down the hill so it fights you to roll it over on a downward slope. Truly, that is my only complain about how the sled handles.

Bearcat
05-13-2009, 01:11 AM
I agree 100% what highlife is saying. Driver is too far forward and it causes issues when going downhill. When heading straight forward uphill I think XP may be the best sled? But if you need to drive slower, watch some trees etc... then it's a bull with own mind.

This improve may be good but I'm more bashing doo because of the drive line. How that big company can't fix one simple drive line? Here in Finland breaking belts is a huge problem. That problem has been years and factory has done nothing to it. People who buy new BRP around here need to tear new sled apart and recalibrate whole drive line again by them self. That costs a lot and needs a lot experience to do. If you don't do it, you need to buy new belt every 100-200km. That sucks big time.

What if you buy a new car and first thing to do is tear it apart and fix the gear box? No sense at all.

Second astonishment:
Why they changed the track? I think that old track was awesome for hillclimbing etc.

Anylizer
05-13-2009, 02:18 PM
You keyboard supertuners kill me !!!!! This is what limit straps are for. In the 08-09 Xp with the straps all the way out there is still too much ski pressure for a fun trail/ cross over ride. So if they drop the front arm for lighter ski pressure and a better, more fun to ride sled "GREAT" if you want the flatter attack angle and better hillclimb performance....... PULL THE LIMITERS UP!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Doo37
05-14-2009, 10:38 AM
i feel a lil dumber after reading this thread:D

LRD
05-14-2009, 03:31 PM
When I built my XP mtn sled out of a TNT I put Yami app Floats on the skis .5 " shorter which raised the skis (dropped the front end) 1" which essentially does the same thing as dropping the front skid arm but without making the attack angle steeper. Also have a front end about 50 lbs lighter than a stock 800 which also puts higher % of the sleds weight under the front arm for nice pivot action either side to side or end for end.

I built my sled for a much lower polar moment of inertia than a stock XP. Here is what polar moment of inertia is for those that don't know. Take a barbell 36" long with 15 lbs on each end and grab in center and rotate in circle = high polar moment of inertia. Put both 15 lb weights in center with room to grab bar and rotate again = low polar moment of inertia. Other examples, mid engine formula I vehicle has the most radical low polar moment of inertia and a F350 diesel would be one of the highest.

Good Luck

portgrinder
05-14-2009, 06:26 PM
There comes a point, where if the front of your skid is sucked up too high there will be too much weight on your skis. What will those skis look like going through the snow.....they will tilt up. There is a balance. Where is it? I don't have a clue

Probably doesnt help that 70% of the people that 'sled' in the mountains don't know how to ride in the mountains, so they think it handles bad.

triple7
05-14-2009, 09:47 PM
Probably doesnt help that 70% of the people that 'sled' in the mountains don't know how to ride in the mountains, so they think it handles bad.

Exactly. IMO the XP is the single best handling, most flickable snowmobile in the mountains. It rips on the Rev, Dragon, M and Yammies just are not even close. If you ride a sled hard in the mountains, it will become apparent how much better the XP is. Learn to ride it, yes it is a little different. Once you learn to ride it, it is far better. For two reasons. One, the rider is placed on the sled where he has greater leverage and control over the front of the machine. Second, the machine is a significant amount lighter than anything else.

As for downhill powder turns, I guess Borchers and the rest of the Slednecks crew figured out a way didnt they??

So, for all you keyboard hotrodders out there, how in the heck is a lighter machine that the rider has more control over not a superior piece of iron in the mountains?? It just doesnt make sense. ADJUST the dam thing if you dont like the feel of it for you, but more likely you need to get off you azz, go learn how to ride, and quit causing Skidoo to build a better trail sled out of there mountain chassis. Buy a friggen MXZ if you want to run trials, leave our mountain platform alone!!

Rant over for now

Jake

Killerk
05-15-2009, 01:13 PM
Geeze, I guess I didn't realize that there is one sled that is the best for all riders.
I guess I better overlook the reliability issues, expensive parts, and a sled that is not suited to my riding style and sell what I own to buy an xp.:confused:

Doo37
05-15-2009, 01:41 PM
Geeze, I guess I didn't realize that there is one sled that is the best for all riders.
I guess I better overlook the reliability issues, expensive parts, and a sled that is not suited to my riding style and sell what I own to buy an xp.:confused:

answer=yes;)

SAWYER
05-15-2009, 10:06 PM
Wow triple 7, your xp has never been beat? You must only ride with botards then. I ride a turbo nytro and it's been beat and i'm not ashamed to admit it.

You sound like a badass keyboard rider, telling everyone to get off their *** and learn how to ride. Maybe you should open up a school so you could teach all of us less fortunate riders.

At the very least please put out an instructional how to video next year. Thanks

turbo nytro
05-16-2009, 12:14 AM
Wow triple 7, your xp has never been beat? You must only ride with botards then. I ride a turbo nytro and it's been beat and i'm not ahamed to admit it.

You sound like a badass keyboard rider, telling everyone to get off their add and learn hoe to ride. Maybe you should open up a school so you could teach all of us less fortunate riders.

At the very least please put out an instructional how to video next year. Thanks

x 2 , Have both tnytro & tapex with nos ,meth , if that xp beats a turbo well might have to give them up :(:( but I can't see that happening !!!!!

mod03rmk800
05-16-2009, 02:41 PM
Riding in the mountains on hard snow in technical lines is where(IMO) the skill of rider and machine handling performance come to the surface. Soft deep snow is cake.

A guy maybe could roll the case on the 2010 models if worried.

flying pig
05-17-2009, 04:43 PM
I can attest to what was said earlier about the larger riders. My personal sled is a 1200w/c in a gen 2, its heavy, tall and long. And I'd rather ride it any day over an xp in stock form. I have a terrible time riding an XP. When I rode a 163 for the first time I couldn't make it do ****. Straight up I did feel that the chassis worked excellently, the steeper the better. The guys told me to try getting farther ahead on it, but that made it worse. I'm 230lbs with no gear. I run an m-10 in my sled to control ski lift, just enough to let the thing feel light, even though it definately is not. That sled takes no input at all to throw around compared to the XP, I can even pull steep downhill turns right back into the hill on it, can't do that at all on the 150lb lighter XP.

I think that the approach angle has a ton to do with it. Doo's goin the right way with this for sure. Look how steep a IQ sled's attack is, and they handle great. My m-10 skid makes the approach steep and tall too, sled jumps outa the snow when you get on it, and rolls around with ease. The other thing to remember is their track is wider than the others and they also run outside wheels, track has a wider flex point, like riding on a 2x6 versus a 2x4. Another thing the steeper angle gets you is more track on the ground because you take up less track length between the drivers and skid. The skid I run puts 2-3 more inches of track flat on the ground vs the stock 159 escape skid I had in it before. The m-10 is a 159 as well. I think they're headed the right way with this for sure...

Another thing, maybe they're trying to help us help ourselves a bit here. Because of the avy deaths last year perhaps they think their sled is focused to much on highmarking, or that it has the biggest highmark appeal. Perhaps they feal that this is going to have negative backlash towards their product and hope to gain market with boondockers by building a sled that makes that task easier for the rider. I know when I get on a sled that handles phenominally I personally lose any interest in risking my bacon climbing anything that isn't rediculously tree covered and deep as possible. Maybe they feel if they make the sleds better for that then maybe King Of The Hill is less interesting than King of Threading The Needle.

triple7
05-19-2009, 01:02 AM
Wow triple 7, your xp has never been beat? You must only ride with botards then. I ride a turbo nytro and it's been beat and i'm not ashamed to admit it.

You sound like a badass keyboard rider, telling everyone to get off their *** and learn how to ride. Maybe you should open up a school so you could teach all of us less fortunate riders.

At the very least please put out an instructional how to video next year. Thanks

Anytime anywhere, we can go riding where riding is really riding. Tree workin, up and down, through creeks, across ravines. The nastiest, toughest crap we can find. No, Im not a sit at home and never ride type. I travel all over. Lost a buddy in an avy so I dont go poke at open stuff where an overweight turbo four stroker is best and I havent ridden with more than 4 or 5 turbo two strokes so not sure what to expect out of a good running one. Wasnt trying to bash other peoples riding skill, just think that if you are a proponent of adding weight and sharpening approach angles you should just ride another brand rather than adding input that could cause Skidoo to take a step back. If you like how a Dragon rides better, get one. But I ride with lots of different guys that all love the XP, so why make a change that you need to undo if you are going to use the sled for what it is really for??

hilinerider
05-19-2009, 09:11 AM
only comment i have on this is a turbo nytro through the trees creeks rocks is no fun to follow, and from observin was not all that fun for the rider, but i had a blast on my d8

SAWYER
05-19-2009, 06:51 PM
actually the nytro is really easy to boondock once you have some seat time on it

Himark
05-19-2009, 11:43 PM
Maybe they are trying to get rid of the difficulty that the magazines and others were having in putting the XP on its side compared to the other brands.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^True, they have a serious stigma with this and need to address it. This is there way of defusing it.

hilinerider
05-19-2009, 11:51 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^True, they have a serious stigma with this and need to address it. This is there way of defusing it.

x2 on that, had a days ride on one, if you pinit and pull you can get there but if you slowdown and let off she goes back down, where as my d8 i can idle around on one ski if want to, flat ground or otherwise

NoSecondChances
05-20-2009, 09:36 AM
Anytime anywhere, we can go riding where riding is really riding. Tree workin, up and down, through creeks, across ravines. The nastiest, toughest crap we can find. No, Im not a sit at home and never ride type. I travel all over. Lost a buddy in an avy so I dont go poke at open stuff where an overweight turbo four stroker is best and I havent ridden with more than 4 or 5 turbo two strokes so not sure what to expect out of a good running one. Wasnt trying to bash other peoples riding skill, just think that if you are a proponent of adding weight and sharpening approach angles you should just ride another brand rather than adding input that could cause Skidoo to take a step back. If you like how a Dragon rides better, get one. But I ride with lots of different guys that all love the XP, so why make a change that you need to undo if you are going to use the sled for what it is really for??

1) No offense dude, but you don't speak for all us Ski Doo riders. I'd rather have 5 extra lbs than a busted driveshaft and a heli bill.
2) If you know so much about what you want in a chassis....why not build your own?? Seriously. It sounds like you have some thoughts on this subject, have you tried changing the rear mounts or D&R'ing your XP to see what the handling will do? I know lots of guys that think their sled is the bomb, and then you tell them to try one little change and they do and they have a huge epiphany: "Wow - that works so much better!". Some guys on here that have built their own chassis' might be able to help out with XP setup ;)
3) Having ridden with several boosted and non-boosted 4 strokes, I can honestly tell you that they are just as good as the 2 strokes. Have you weighed a fully loaded XP and Nytro with riders and gear standing on the sleds (parking lot ready)? You might be surprised.
4) Coming on here and saying your sled has never been beat. Beat at what? I might know of a sled that could beat your XP in an uphill drag race :rolleyes:.......you might beat it in the tight tight trees, but you are going to be taking a butter knife to a bazooka fight on a point and shoot. If thats not the type of riding your do, then fine, leave it to other guys to do what they like instead of telling them they need to learn how to ride. Ya, your sled might be better at flicking around some tree, a boosted nytro like Sawyers will kill your stocker at climbing, ask guys like Stanger etc who have boosted 1200's and are running on par with the blown 4 stroke crowd. A stock 800 isn't even in the same zip code, that's the hard reality. A sled needs to be able to do it all, the XP does things well, but it still has limitations, just like all the others.

I'm just outside looking in.
NSC

07rev800R
05-20-2009, 11:36 AM
i find that the d8 stays on top all the time and my rev is always pushing snow unless i am on the throtle lots.... but i seen one d8 chit itself 3 times same sled and heard of lots that have also... where the 800r has chit itself but alot less.... mine chit itself do to aftermarket parts failing... to much invested in this rev now to get rid of it....

triple7
05-22-2009, 01:02 AM
1) No offense dude, but you don't speak for all us Ski Doo riders. I'd rather have 5 extra lbs than a busted driveshaft and a heli bill.
2) If you know so much about what you want in a chassis....why not build your own?? Seriously. It sounds like you have some thoughts on this subject, have you tried changing the rear mounts or D&R'ing your XP to see what the handling will do? I know lots of guys that think their sled is the bomb, and then you tell them to try one little change and they do and they have a huge epiphany: "Wow - that works so much better!". Some guys on here that have built their own chassis' might be able to help out with XP setup ;)
3) Having ridden with several boosted and non-boosted 4 strokes, I can honestly tell you that they are just as good as the 2 strokes. Have you weighed a fully loaded XP and Nytro with riders and gear standing on the sleds (parking lot ready)? You might be surprised.
4) Coming on here and saying your sled has never been beat. Beat at what? I might know of a sled that could beat your XP in an uphill drag race :rolleyes:.......you might beat it in the tight tight trees, but you are going to be taking a butter knife to a bazooka fight on a point and shoot. If thats not the type of riding your do, then fine, leave it to other guys to do what they like instead of telling them they need to learn how to ride. Ya, your sled might be better at flicking around some tree, a boosted nytro like Sawyers will kill your stocker at climbing, ask guys like Stanger etc who have boosted 1200's and are running on par with the blown 4 stroke crowd. A stock 800 isn't even in the same zip code, that's the hard reality. A sled needs to be able to do it all, the XP does things well, but it still has limitations, just like all the others.

I'm just outside looking in.
NSC


Thank you for your opinion. Ya a boosted sled that runs right will blow it away. Thats why its getting a hair dryer next year. As far as XP and Nytro weights, I am going to ask you the same question...Have you weighed them?? Equal dollars or close to equal dollars spent?? I believe the term you used was "isnt even in the same zip code"

As far as setup, ya dude. I have messed with it. I have "adjusted" it as I said you should do in an ealier post. My point being that if your XP doesnt sidehill, why the heck sugar coat it, its you. Maybe you can make it better, in fact I am sure that you can. But using a bandaid like building a steeper approach angle?? WTF Its people that except that kind of an R&D "cure" on a 12,000 dollar sled that cause snowmobiles to lag years behind the technology of motorcycles. Why would I want to build my own chassis? Snowmobiling is a hobby, not my life long pursuit. My point is that the XP is a good chassis that gets panned by people that probably should take my advice and get off their *** and go riding.

Obviously this is just my opinion. Everybody should quit gettin there nickers in a knot if it bothers you. If you think the 2010 is the chit buy one. As far as my XP not being beat...it hasnt. That is how it is. No, I dont go shoot chutes with the turbos all day. Maybe next year I will get into that. Until then, it is a boondocker. If you want to come knock the sled off tree riding, by all means, lets do it. Anywhere around the Northwest, choose your weapon and I will meet ya there.

longhairfreak
05-22-2009, 05:15 AM
I dont care what anybody says the steeper the attack angle on a sled the worse off it is.

NoSecondChances
05-22-2009, 10:30 AM
Thank you for your opinion. Ya a boosted sled that runs right will blow it away. Thats why its getting a hair dryer next year. As far as XP and Nytro weights, I am going to ask you the same question...Have you weighed them?? Equal dollars or close to equal dollars spent?? I believe the term you used was "isnt even in the same zip code"

As far as setup, ya dude. I have messed with it. I have "adjusted" it as I said you should do in an ealier post. My point being that if your XP doesnt sidehill, why the heck sugar coat it, its you. Maybe you can make it better, in fact I am sure that you can. But using a bandaid like building a steeper approach angle?? WTF Its people that except that kind of an R&D "cure" on a 12,000 dollar sled that cause snowmobiles to lag years behind the technology of motorcycles. Why would I want to build my own chassis? Snowmobiling is a hobby, not my life long pursuit. My point is that the XP is a good chassis that gets panned by people that probably should take my advice and get off their *** and go riding.

Obviously this is just my opinion. Everybody should quit gettin there nickers in a knot if it bothers you. If you think the 2010 is the chit buy one. As far as my XP not being beat...it hasnt. That is how it is. No, I dont go shoot chutes with the turbos all day. Maybe next year I will get into that. Until then, it is a boondocker. If you want to come knock the sled off tree riding, by all means, lets do it. Anywhere around the Northwest, choose your weapon and I will meet ya there.

LOL - didn't mean to ruffle any feathers there T7 - just pointing out some things. I'm pretty sure I ain't going to beat you in the trees, like I said, a different type of riding with something that lets me open it up....maybe. I'm pretty sure we have different sleds. Either way, I'm not overly concerned about it.

I still disagree with your comments like "If your XP doesn't sidehill......its you."

Maybe its the skis, front suspension setup, etc etc etc. Lots of factors play a huge role in a riders ability to ride their sled, not just the rider itself - I'm sure you know this. Hard to say its all rider inexperience when I've ridden with guys who have over 20 yrs on the snow and are still learning to ride their XP after 1.5 seasons. Maybe you are a fast learner and MX experience helps you.

Lots of guys that bought XP's had to re-learn the riding curve (same with the Rev chassis when it was introduced). Some aren't there yet, to some if just feels foreign.

NSC

Motley Doo
05-22-2009, 11:58 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, different sleds fit different people differently! I've ridden a dragon, little bit on the xp, rev's, RT's, m's, King kats, etc...my favorite sled is the old ZX platform. Does this mean all others suck and have no use, absolutely not! I don't like how the zx goes down the trail, but off trail, I love it, and it's just me and my zx setup! I think everyone has a chassis that was built for them, the other chassis are excellent chassis, just not for me.

As for the track angle, there is a balance point as I have found of having too much angle and not enough. Too much, sled will trench and won't do crap for climbing, however, too shallow, the sled gets VERY hard to throw around, side hill, carve, anything technical. Even a bit of angle helps climbing, without some angle, you have no bellypan seperation from the snow and will not allow the skid to work! A track has to be able to trench a bit to gain traction. Again, this is something everyone likes different, personally, I like hanging the ski's a few inches off the snow, makes the sled even easier to control IMO, but some like the ski's planted, and that all has to do with limiter straps and attack angle.

Basically, goes the old saying, different strokes for different folks!

longhairfreak
05-23-2009, 10:39 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, different sleds fit different people differently! I've ridden a dragon, little bit on the xp, rev's, RT's, m's, King kats, etc...my favorite sled is the old ZX platform. Does this mean all others suck and have no use, absolutely not! I don't like how the zx goes down the trail, but off trail, I love it, and it's just me and my zx setup! I think everyone has a chassis that was built for them, the other chassis are excellent chassis, just not for me.

As for the track angle, there is a balance point as I have found of having too much angle and not enough. Too much, sled will trench and won't do crap for climbing, however, too shallow, the sled gets VERY hard to throw around, side hill, carve, anything technical. Even a bit of angle helps climbing, without some angle, you have no bellypan seperation from the snow and will not allow the skid to work! A track has to be able to trench a bit to gain traction. Again, this is something everyone likes different, personally, I like hanging the ski's a few inches off the snow, makes the sled even easier to control IMO, but some like the ski's planted, and that all has to do with limiter straps and attack angle.

Basically, goes the old saying, different strokes for different folks!

Well at least you understand that the ZX platform is the best platform ever put on snow.